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Ban sale of nazi good, and nazi cosplay?

#31 User is offline   Valkyrie 

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 07:00 PM

You do raise a good point, Lin - and also a very good question that I don't have the ability to readily answer or make a ruling upon. (To say nothing of any "well, if you ban this, the you have to ban this" finger-pointing that may ensue...and really, there's enough of that that could potentially go around.)

So, here's what I propose - for the sake of calm and civility, since this is a sensitive topic that is quickly becoming heated. I've already raised this issue to other staff, and higher-ups are aware. Let's table the discussion here for now, and let it continue among those who actually CAN make a decision.
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#32 User is offline   BreBre716 

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 09:43 PM

I didn't take the time to read what was said previously but, I believe these cosplayers that look like nazi's are just from Hellsing. My friend and I approached a group of them at the con because we were curious and wondering what the heck was up with that because my friend has ties to her Polish family being persecuted in that time period and it was bothering her a bit because out of the 5 years she's attended she never understood what was up with it and I decided that we should just ask. we said .. "so.. what are you guys doing? are you just walkinga round as Nazi's? and why are you doing this?" they replied. "no we're from hellsing not just nazi's to be nazi's" or something along those lines and then we were satisfied with an answer and left it at that. :/

This post has been edited by BreBre716: 25 June 2012 - 07:54 AM

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#33 User is offline   BreBre716 

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 09:46 PM

But the sale of Nazi good stuff seems a tad .. ehhhh touchy so I would say get rid of that. :/
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#34 User is offline   Valkyrie 

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 04:48 AM

The merch in question may also be from series such as Hellsing, Hetalia, etc.
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#35 User is offline   STVO 

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 06:24 AM

I understand this country is built on freedom of speech, but that is really pushing it. If people do continue cosplays like that, I can see it biting them back in the butt one day. I think some people really throw around the "freedom of speech" card too often for cases like this. Again if it gets to stay, I won't make a huge deal about it but if others give those wearing swastikas hell, well I won't blame them for it. Most people are taught a little about Adolph Hitler and Nazis in elementary school (I remember doing a presentation in 4th grade at least) they should know they're at risk of offending others for wearing the bands or whatever. I usually am quick to defend ACen in many cases and while I'm not saying I'm taking my business elsewhere, I do think it's pretty bad they would allow this when I've heard them say no to an assortment of other cosplays.
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Posted 25 June 2012 - 07:22 AM

View PostValkyrie, on 25 June 2012 - 04:48 AM, said:

The merch in question may also be from series such as Hellsing, Hetalia, etc.

No, I saw the booth too and am familiar with both, It was not from either of those series and was one of the stores that sold gas masks if I recall.
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#37 User is offline   solanis 

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 09:10 AM

View PostValkyrie, on 25 June 2012 - 04:48 AM, said:

The merch in question may also be from series such as Hellsing, Hetalia, etc.


No, it definitely wasn't from hellsing or hetalia. There were people walking around in full-on SS regalia, and the booth that stood out was indeed the gas masks booth, the guy who used to sell extremely overpriced Bodyline outfits but he's moved on to nazi clothing and paraphernalia now.

As for the hellsing question... why not just ban swastikas and nazi symbols on armbands and uniforms? That way the hellsing and hetalia cosplayers can do their thing without being too offensive, and the people who INSIST on being contrarian and selling merch with the swastika as a Buddhist symbol can continue to do so unperturbed.

#38 User is offline   myrla 

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 09:21 AM

View Postsolanis, on 25 June 2012 - 09:10 AM, said:

No, it definitely wasn't from hellsing or hetalia. There were people walking around in full-on SS regalia, and the booth that stood out was indeed the gas masks booth, the guy who used to sell extremely overpriced Bodyline outfits but he's moved on to nazi clothing and paraphernalia now.

As for the hellsing question... why not just ban swastikas and nazi symbols on armbands and uniforms? That way the hellsing and hetalia cosplayers can do their thing without being too offensive, and the people who INSIST on being contrarian and selling merch with the swastika as a Buddhist symbol can continue to do so unperturbed.


No identifying military insignia on costumes (obviously active duty military would not be affected by this rule as theirs is a UNIFORM not a COSTUME).

That would go a long way.
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#39 User is offline   linlindesu 

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 12:12 PM

View PostBreBre716, on 24 June 2012 - 09:43 PM, said:

I didn't take the time to read what was said previously but, I believe these cosplayers that look like nazi's are just from Hellsing

.... why the forums can't have nice things.

I agree with you myrla, that sounds like an excellent standard that would also prevent any "if you do this then that isn't allowed".
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#40 User is offline   BreBre716 

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 09:35 PM

View Postlinlindesu, on 25 June 2012 - 12:12 PM, said:

.... why the forums can't have nice things.

I agree with you myrla, that sounds like an excellent standard that would also prevent any "if you do this then that isn't allowed".




Thanks for calling me out so why am i part of the reason the forums are not full of the nice things you want? I didn't read through every little post I just put my two cents in understand? no need to belittle me for that.
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#41 User is offline   linlindesu 

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 10:22 PM

View PostBreBre716, on 25 June 2012 - 09:35 PM, said:

Thanks for calling me out so why am i part of the reason the forums are not full of the nice things you want? I didn't read through every little post I just put my two cents in understand? no need to belittle me for that.

we just reached an accord that the higher ups would do further talking. so yes, your 2 cents ( which was already covered) is worth little if you care for what no one else had to say.
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#42 User is offline   BreBre716 

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 11:20 PM

View Postlinlindesu, on 25 June 2012 - 10:22 PM, said:

we just reached an accord that the higher ups would do further talking. so yes, your 2 cents ( which was already covered) is worth little if you care for what no one else had to say.



I'd appreciate it if you didn't put words in my mouth . it's not that i didn't care what anyone else had to say , it's that i skimmed a few then decided to just post what i thought . so excuse me for saying what i think about the situation.
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#43 User is offline   linlindesu 

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 11:28 PM

View PostBreBre716, on 25 June 2012 - 11:20 PM, said:

I'd appreciate it if you didn't put words in my mouth . it's not that i didn't care what anyone else had to say , it's that i skimmed a few then decided to just post what i thought . so excuse me for saying what i think about the situation.

if you do then you'll read a thread before saying anything ( or the forums will be filled with people repeating the same thing over and over)

back on topic, I see the DH of the dealer's room has been peeking on the thread so question, do you guys go through every single piece sold or just kinda sweep over the shops or...?
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Posted 26 June 2012 - 03:02 AM

ACen style History Class~! and were not watching a movie =D
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Posted 26 June 2012 - 05:39 AM

View Postlinlindesu, on 24 June 2012 - 12:18 AM, said:

here. educate yourself http://symboldictionary.net/?p=1669
was not originally luck, or peace, and it is not even originally from japan.

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View Postlinlindesu, on 25 June 2012 - 10:22 PM, said:

we just reached an accord that the higher ups would do further talking. so yes, your 2 cents ( which was already covered) is worth little if you care for what no one else had to say.

...

if you do then you'll read a thread before saying anything ( or the forums will be filled with people repeating the same thing over and over)
back on topic, I see the DH of the dealer's room has been peeking on the thread so question, do you guys go through every single piece sold or just kinda sweep over the shops or...?


More and more, I see you degrading others. It, in its self, is disrespectful. Yes, it seems that with less than 2 pages in the thread, people might read every post. But the forums should be taken in stride. If you want to continue a discussion in "forum etiquette", I invite you to start a topic in ChitChat.

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#46 User is offline   Bloo09 

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 07:13 AM

Please return to on topic chat and refrain from taking "shots" at each other.

This is something that upper management is aware of and will be meeting about, most likely in our in person manager meeting next month. In the past ACen has had Hatalia etc. Anime cosplayers remove their flags from their hotel balconies, and inform them to not go around taking their cosplay too far.
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#47 User is offline   Voltaire30 

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 09:28 AM

View Postlinlindesu, on 25 June 2012 - 11:28 PM, said:

... I see the DH of the dealer's room has been peeking on the thread so question, do you guys go through every single piece sold or just kinda sweep over the shops or...?



I have been poking my head in here from time to time, and here I thought I could be sneaky XD

Our teams sweep the hall thoughout the event looking at the different types of products on display and for sale. Mainly we are looking for cases of items that violate contractual obligations since sometimes people can forget. So we have a narrow field of items we are looking for, but we still notice what goes on in the hall if it is drawing attention. Any reason in particular?
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#48 User is offline   The Fujoshi 

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 02:06 PM

View PostBreBre716, on 24 June 2012 - 09:43 PM, said:

I didn't take the time to read what was said previously but, I believe these cosplayers that look like nazi's are just from Hellsing. My friend and I approached a group of them at the con because we were curious and wondering what the heck was up with that because my friend has ties to her Polish family being persecuted in that time period and it was bothering her a bit because out of the 5 years she's attended she never understood what was up with it and I decided that we should just ask. we said .. "so.. what are you guys doing? are you just walkinga round as Nazi's? and why are you doing this?" they replied. "no we're from hellsing not just nazi's to be nazi's" or something along those lines and then we were satisfied with an answer and left it at that. :/


On topic slightly:

Hellsing members (some of them,) are based on the third reich

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellsing

Hetalia is based on WWII

Which is why they have said swastika.

If you go by what Lin said, that means we shouldn't have:

Anyone cosplaying Russia due to the Cold war/communism, since he represents both and his military uniform is actually from that time period.

Anyone cosplaying Pedobear since he represents pedos in general from 4chan

Anyone cosplaying from Hetalia period

Anyone cosplaying from Hellsing or any series that is based on history

Anyone cosplaying School days or otome games

Anyone cosplaying Shin Megami because it promotes Satanism

I don't enjoy the symbol in question myself, as stated, but I can't find a way that would ban said symbol and make everyone happy. This isn't a common thing either; it's been an issue with other conventions in general. If we ban this symbol then what else?

I'm curious on the higher up point of views as well.

EDIT: Even though it was in a manga, it says that it was based on a good luck charm. I probably got it mixed up because I read the information from a Japanese manga, which I do correct and apologize. BUT it was used in Blade of the immortal: The name Swastika is derived from the Sanskrit language, from “su,” meaning “good,” and “vasti”,” meaning “being” (together; well being). In India, it is used as a fertility and good luck charm. It was on the back of the main character and I ASSUMED that it came from Japan/Asian in general since the creator in question had to make a note before the manga started just in case he offended people like yourself.

The manga in question is very good but highly unpopular, probably because of this and it doesn't suffer from "moe," similar to Wolf and Cub.

BTW I am part German decent, but I'm thick skinned when it comes to stuff like this and the only thing that offends me is really really arrogant ignorant people with the "holy than thou." Stuff like history, the background to Kagome Kagome with the Japanese experimenting on the Koreans/Chinese, people constantly calling each other the N word or the B word etc. has made me pretty numb.

So if someone dressed up like Hitler yes it's distasteful, no I don't have a right to touch them or yell at them to change, it's their body and it's their life.

This post has been edited by The Fujoshi: 26 June 2012 - 02:33 PM

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 02:47 PM

View PostThe Fujoshi, on 26 June 2012 - 02:06 PM, said:

Hetalia is based on WWII

Which is why they have said swastika.


No character in Hetalia wears a swastika though. Himaruya took care to modify the uniforms so they weren't exactly copy pasted from the period and were his own design. If swastikas were banned, Hetalia cosplayers shouldn't throw a fit because they weren't in the original designs anyway. If they wanted to make a historically accurate outfit that's a totally different matter entirely and should be handled as such. Hellsing cosplayers as well. I'm sure they could find a way to wear the armband but avoid the swastika. It's not that hard to modify a small portion of your costume.
I'm genuinely curious though.... How did you go from banning swastikas to banning entire series? I don't follow your point.


View PostSTVO, on 25 June 2012 - 06:24 AM, said:

I understand this country is built on freedom of speech, but that is really pushing it. If people do continue cosplays like that, I can see it biting them back in the butt one day. I think some people really throw around the "freedom of speech" card too often for cases like this.


I just want to say, YES. This is what was bothering me about this thread. People throw around "Freedom of Speech" too much without fully understanding what that freedom represents. It's not a complete freedom. [Nor are any of our freedoms, really.] Private institutions do hold the right to make rules and regulations on the clothes you wear and the things you say. ACen already tells cosplayers a costume is unacceptable if "it Leaves your feet bare, Has vulgar remarks or hate speech, Will damage hotel property (example: pointy spikes or body paint on the uncovered areas you use to sit.), Has a sign that is not obviously part of the costume., etc. etc." Those could all be argued as infringing on a person's basic "freedom of speech" yet it's perfectly in ACen's right to have those rules. I don't see how banning a swastika is any different.
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#50 User is offline   linlindesu 

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 03:24 PM

View PostVoltaire30, on 26 June 2012 - 09:28 AM, said:

I have been poking my head in here from time to time, and here I thought I could be sneaky XD

Our teams sweep the hall thoughout the event looking at the different types of products on display and for sale. Mainly we are looking for cases of items that violate contractual obligations since sometimes people can forget. So we have a narrow field of items we are looking for, but we still notice what goes on in the hall if it is drawing attention. Any reason in particular?

just asking because I'm not really sure if you'd be sweeping for swastikas ( sounds like a bad musical) really. Probably more like bootlegs and such.
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#51 User is offline   Voltaire30 

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 03:46 PM

View Postlinlindesu, on 26 June 2012 - 03:24 PM, said:

just asking because I'm not really sure if you'd be sweeping for swastikas ( sounds like a bad musical) really. Probably more like bootlegs and such.


Well we also sweep for things other than bootlegs. One of the things we keep an eye out for is BBs and Airsoft Pellets. Those are actually not permitted to be sold within the Exhibition Hall since they can be used along with Airsofts to damage vehicles. The sale of switch blades, and similar, are also not allowed as well, since they require certain state and federal permits to buy. We also sweep for some other things, but thats all detailed in the contract on our web-site. :\

It is possible to restrict it though. I would proably take the stance of swastikas as they are related to the Nazi's, as to not hinder their other uses, since that is what I am seeing the sticking point being (unless I am mistaken). That is going to take some skilled wording on my part, contract wise... >.< ... I am sure it will be discussed at the next meeting though.

I does sound like a very poor musical though, there is no way it could even come anywhere close to "The Sound of Music"...
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#52 User is offline   linlindesu 

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 04:06 PM

View PostVoltaire30, on 26 June 2012 - 03:46 PM, said:

Well we also sweep for things other than bootlegs. One of the things we keep an eye out for is BBs and Airsoft Pellets. Those are actually not permitted to be sold within the Exhibition Hall since they can be used along with Airsofts to damage vehicles. The sale of switch blades, and similar, are also not allowed as well, since they require certain state and federal permits to buy. We also sweep for some other things, but thats all detailed in the contract on our web-site. :\

It is possible to restrict it though. I would proably take the stance of swastikas as they are related to the Nazi's, as to not hinder their other uses, since that is what I am seeing the sticking point being (unless I am mistaken). That is going to take some skilled wording on my part, contract wise... >.< ... I am sure it will be discussed at the next meeting though.

I does sound like a very poor musical though, there is no way it could even come anywhere close to "The Sound of Music"...

Maybe something along the lines of "hate speech" ?
I'm actually really happy because of my 4 years on the forums, very rarely did a thread really change much but in a matter of days staff have shown concern.
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#53 User is offline   Voltaire30 

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 05:29 PM

View Postlinlindesu, on 26 June 2012 - 04:06 PM, said:

Maybe something along the lines of "hate speech" ?
I'm actually really happy because of my 4 years on the forums, very rarely did a thread really change much but in a matter of days staff have shown concern.


I hear you. It is hard to sometimes weed out the actual requests from heated debates, because each side has been polarized beyond being able to compromise. That is probably one of the reasons why heated debates don't go anywhere. :( We are working on things though, for improvements to ACen. :) It just takes us longer than it should sometimes, and we know it, which is one of the many things our ConChair has been improving this year. :)
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#54 User is offline   The Fujoshi 

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 10:06 PM

View PostGabichox, on 26 June 2012 - 02:47 PM, said:

No character in Hetalia wears a swastika though. Himaruya took care to modify the uniforms so they weren't exactly copy pasted from the period and were his own design. If swastikas were banned, Hetalia cosplayers shouldn't throw a fit because they weren't in the original designs anyway. If they wanted to make a historically accurate outfit that's a totally different matter entirely and should be handled as such. Hellsing cosplayers as well. I'm sure they could find a way to wear the armband but avoid the swastika. It's not that hard to modify a small portion of your costume.
I'm genuinely curious though.... How did you go from banning swastikas to banning entire series? I don't follow your point.


The Swastikas was in a comic strip for Hetalia in the background. This was pointed out in the Hetalia thread and I seen them myself in a few of the old issues when it was still online before coming to the USA. I didn't bat an eye at all.

The Swastika is offensive, which is why people want to ban it. If you go by the same route you might as well ban anything that's offensive, including Hetalia and several other series/cosplays. Some cosplayers have been trying to ban Hetalia from Photoshoots and in general, because Hetalia is an offensive, stereotypical show that offends people like the Swastika does.

Some people get upset too easy.

I personally don't care if the Swastika gets banned or not, but I was just saying if you ban this then you might as well go all the way instead of half way. Either way it goes you're going to make someone mad or offend someone. No matter what the high ups do someone is going to be upset.
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All the random avatars this time are from LJ and I don't own any of them. Some of the avatars are credit to aristocracy, Taku ♫ arthursandwich, noxjustxnoin, imperial-code, dojicons, narrante, dino-cookie, shiroyuki_kun, takerzmuse, and ushitora_icons at LJ. I DON'T OWN ANY OF THE ICONS.


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#55 User is offline   kenkendazo  

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 10:15 PM

View PostThe Fujoshi, on 26 June 2012 - 10:06 PM, said:

The Swastika is offensive, which is why people want to ban it. If you go by the same route you might as well ban anything that's offensive, including Hetalia and several other series/cosplays. Some cosplayers have been trying to ban Hetalia from Photoshoots and in general, because Hetalia is an offensive, stereotypical show that offends people like the Swastika does.upset.

Yeah but sterotypes never locked folks up in gas-chambers.

Also, you said it was in the background, not on the actual outfits.
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#56 User is offline   solanis 

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 10:16 PM

Fujoshi: The swastika is the symbol of the people who murdered the families of many attendees. It's very nice that YOU, as an unaffected individual, have a nonchalant attitude about it. Most people don't share your view.

This thread isn't about banning your precious Hetalia/Hellsing cosplay, just about getting people to stop wearing Nazi cosplay, or at the very least, to ban swastika armbands and other nazi propaganda and visual hate speech.

This post has been edited by solanis: 26 June 2012 - 10:17 PM


#57 User is offline   Kamiokande 

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 10:34 PM

The other problem with banning Nazi cosplayers is that a cosplay honors the show, not the character. Anime like Hellsing and Kekko Kamen have characters who are Nazis, but those characters are the villains. The bad guys. Other than Matsumoto stuff, anime portray the Nazi party as something that should be hated and defeated. Yes, the Nazi cosplays should be considered offensive. Offensive to Nazis. What's wrong with being offensive to Nazis? If an anime portrayed the Nazis as heroes attempting to free civilized European society from the threat of Jews et al, I would understand a ban on cosplays from it. But not Hellsing.

#58 User is offline   linlindesu 

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 10:38 PM

View PostKamiokande, on 26 June 2012 - 10:34 PM, said:

The other problem with banning Nazi cosplayers is that a cosplay honors the show, not the character. Anime like Hellsing and Kekko Kamen have characters who are Nazis, but those characters are the villains. The bad guys. Other than Matsumoto stuff, anime portray the Nazi party as something that should be hated and defeated. Yes, the Nazi cosplays should be considered offensive. Offensive to Nazis. What's wrong with being offensive to Nazis? If an anime portrayed the Nazis as heroes attempting to free civilized European society from the threat of Jews et al, I would understand a ban on cosplays from it. But not Hellsing.


The SWASTIKA and realistic nazi cosplay is what we are hoping will be banned.
Not all nazi related characters and such.
Is it THAT hard not to cover a swastika? No one is going to pick on them for it. =__=';
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#59 User is offline   The Fujoshi 

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 10:41 PM

View Postkenkendazo, on 26 June 2012 - 10:15 PM, said:

Yeah but sterotypes never locked folks up in gas-chambers.

Also, you said it was in the background, not on the actual outfits.


Yes. The reason why Creator san of Hetalia didn't put this in was because of people getting offended exactly like this. People by default are "Too lazy didn't read/didn't pay attention," so something in the background would have less notice than something constantly on a character, like if Germany or Italy had one of these on their arms.

Actually if you go by the stereotypes people have of Russians, they are just as bad as the Germans. They hate all Americans, are wife beaters, and skin heads and anyone not Russian or white should avoid Russia oh and they are generally evil people.

Now Hetalia fandom has made America, from Hetalia, view Russia, from Hetalia, in this light based on stereotypes of Americans viewing Russians like this, mind you this isn't canon at all. But people think it is. Some of the fanfiction I read was really offensive, to the point that America would literally call him a "commie evil spy blah blah blah," for no reason what so ever.


Another example

Not about Nazis and not about gas chambers but Len *gasp* has the swastika. Now is this video promoting Nazis? NOPE. Did this offend me? NOPE.

Also Solanis did you read what I said? At all? I told you that I didn't care and that I personally have a middle ground with Hetalia. If you don't know now you know. I used to like Hetalia yes, but I don't anymore. I simply grew out of it. Hetalia offends a lot of people which is why I don't cosplay it anymore; it was my personal choice. So if you think in that point of view, I should hate any person cosplaying a Japanese character due to the experiments of one lab that killed thousands of Chinese and Koreans during WWII, any Korea cosplayer from Hetalia due to the Korean war, etc. because they represent such things? The swastika itself isn't bad; the history behind it and the people make it bad.

Also why should I be offend to the point that I get upset Solanis over anyone liking to wear the swastika? If that's the cause I should dislike caucasian people because they killed off my ancestors, on both sides and because minorities are misrepresented. I'm part naive American as well.It's their choice to wear it and I have no right to say "YOU SHOULDN'T DO THAT." Offensive or not. You ignore it like most things in life and move on. You don't beat people's behinds if they decide to wear the swastika; then you're promoting a hate crime yourself and it's assault. You can sneer but what else can you do?

I don't care if the swastika gets banned or not, I repeat. I feel that it should be all the way. Why stop at the swastika? Why not just ban anything that seems offensive, like Pot head or Pedo bear? Or most of Hetalia cosplayers in military uniforms? Or Yoko?

I don't wear a swastika and I never will. I must point this out since people seem to think I am pro this when in fact I'm not and I never said I was. I am simply saying how no matter what you do it's going to be mad people. People wear the swastika to be perfectionist, offensive or not, because in their eyes It's not offensive and it's a part of history like slavery and other horrors in countries. Now you may not understand it yes, but that's how people are.

I'm not even trying to win an argument since most of the people think that the item in question is 100% evil and seem to put their own personal feelings into it, rather than think about it in another person's point of view. You can't change people but you can project yourself.

This post has been edited by The Fujoshi: 26 June 2012 - 10:45 PM

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All the random avatars this time are from LJ and I don't own any of them. Some of the avatars are credit to aristocracy, Taku ♫ arthursandwich, noxjustxnoin, imperial-code, dojicons, narrante, dino-cookie, shiroyuki_kun, takerzmuse, and ushitora_icons at LJ. I DON'T OWN ANY OF THE ICONS.


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#60 User is offline   kenkendazo  

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 10:48 PM

View PostThe Fujoshi, on 26 June 2012 - 10:41 PM, said:


Fujoshi...that is a fan work...like...i could make a drawing of Mario with a swastika and you would use it in an example against Mario?
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