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Ban sale of nazi good, and nazi cosplay?

#1 User is offline   solanis 

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Posted 21 June 2012 - 05:29 PM

At this year's ACen, at least one vendor was selling nazi paraphernalia and several nazi cosplayers were wandering around. I found this disturbing, as did several of my friends. The con rules say that no costumes depicting hate speech are allowed, so can this sort of thing be banned? ACen: Nazis Welcome! doesn't have much of a ring to it.

#2 User is offline   Genichiro 

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Posted 21 June 2012 - 06:20 PM

Whether people like the Nazi party or not (I certainly do not), Nazi costumes don't explicitly display any kind of hate speech. The cosplayers you saw may even have been doing so as a parody, not necessarily to represent the Nazi Party and their beliefs. The same applies to Nazi themed merchandise. I don't think it would be wise to ban these costumes just because of what they could represent, as it would infringe on those cosplayers freedom of expression. Now, if they were going around and shouting Nazi rhetoric and other forms of hate speech, that's a different issue. Not to say the costumes should be banned in that case, but the cosplayers should certainly be warned in such an instance.

*I said I didn't like Nazi cosplayers originally; I meant to say the Nazi party. I don't have a set opinion on Nazi cosplayers

This post has been edited by Genichiro: 22 June 2012 - 07:40 PM


#3 User is offline   kahad 

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Posted 21 June 2012 - 06:34 PM

They might have been Hellsing cosplayers.
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#4 User is offline   The Fujoshi 

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Posted 22 June 2012 - 10:39 AM

View PostGenichiro, on 21 June 2012 - 06:20 PM, said:

Whether people like Nazi cosplayers or not (I certainly do not), Nazi costumes don't explicitly display any kind of hate speech. The cosplayers you saw may even have been doing so as a parody, not necessarily to represent the Nazi Party and their beliefs. The same applies to Nazi themed merchandise. I don't think it would be wise to ban these costumes just because of what they could represent, as it would infringe on those cosplayers freedom of expression. Now, if they were going around and shouting Nazi rhetoric and other forms of hate speech, that's a different issue. Not to say the costumes should be banned in that case, but the cosplayers should certainly be warned in such an instance.


^THIS

Also the fact that the symbol in question was originally a peace/luck symbol of Japan, cosplayers such as Blade of the immortal.

It was most likely Hellsing as Kahad mentioned, since they do have some of the characters wearing such things.
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#5 User is offline   Valkyrie 

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Posted 22 June 2012 - 12:21 PM

I've seen some pretty elaborate uniforms at ACen, and other cons as well. But, those costumes, indeed, typically don't project hate speech in and of itself - no matter what series the costume is from. Hence we usually advise cosplayers to take care with how they behave at ACen. As long as they are respectful of others, and play nice in general, we will usually leave them alone.
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#6 User is offline   Roark 

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Posted 22 June 2012 - 03:37 PM

View PostThe Fujoshi, on 22 June 2012 - 10:39 AM, said:

Also the fact that the symbol in question was originally a peace/luck symbol of Japan, cosplayers such as Blade of the immortal.

I'm really tired of people defending this the swastika using this reasoning.

<philosophy rant>
Symbols cannot have objective semantic meaning. Symbols, by their nature as part of language, only convey meaning contextually. A symbol removed from its context - time, place, or culture - necessarily loses or changes its semantics.
</rant>

The swastika obviously has overlapping semantics within ACen. However, I'd posit that the overwhelmingly agreed upon meaning is not "that symbol from Hellsing" or "that Asian good luck charm." Rather, most people's semantic associations with that symbol are "Nazi" and "Holocaust."

I'm hoping a few Holocaust survivors see kids cosplaying in Nazi symbols. I love when old people righteously chew out young'ins for being stupid.

#7 User is offline   magicalgamer 

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Posted 22 June 2012 - 04:45 PM

I did get a few good photos of some of these people with Captain America.

Now I am going to say something that may not be the most popular opinion. In my opinion, Nazis, or more specifically anyone wearing the uniform of the Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei (I hope I spelled that right) or German army, are not necessarily bad people. In any country, culture, religion, or society in general, there are bad apples. Is a simple enlisted military soldier responsible for every bad act he committed while wearing the uniform? The soldier may not have liked what he was doing, or he may not of even wanted to do what he was doing, but during a war the soldier was following orders from his superior officer. So on one side of the coin, the soldier should be commended for following orders and on the other side of the coin if the soldier knew what he was doing was wrong he should of said something or just refused to do it. The consequences could be as severe as death depending on what order was refused.

Now back to if I think people should cosplay as this. Well, everyone I met at ACen that was in a costume that this topic is about was respectful and were perfectly behaved. I am glad the policies for ACen are more relaxed then other cons that I have attended. Will I ever cosplay in a Nazi uniform? No, but I repect the freedom others have.

#8 User is offline   linlindesu 

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Posted 22 June 2012 - 04:56 PM

View Postmagicalgamer, on 22 June 2012 - 04:45 PM, said:

I did get a few good photos of some of these people with Captain America.

Now I am going to say something that may not be the most popular opinion. In my opinion, Nazis, or more specifically anyone wearing the uniform of the Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei (I hope I spelled that right) or German army, are not necessarily bad people. In any country, culture, religion, or society in general, there are bad apples. Is a simple enlisted military soldier responsible for every bad act he committed while wearing the uniform? The soldier may not have liked what he was doing, or he may not of even wanted to do what he was doing, but during a war the soldier was following orders from his superior officer. So on one side of the coin, the soldier should be commended for following orders and on the other side of the coin if the soldier knew what he was doing was wrong he should of said something or just refused to do it. The consequences could be as severe as death depending on what order was refused.

Now back to if I think people should cosplay as this. Well, everyone I met at ACen that was in a costume that this topic is about was respectful and were perfectly behaved. I am glad the policies for ACen are more relaxed then other cons that I have attended. Will I ever cosplay in a Nazi uniform? No, but I repect the freedom others have.

... Oh yes, the people cosplaying nazis ( outside of anime , etc.)are totally giving them backstories.
"Rolf did not want to murder all those people, what he REALLY wanted to do was open a dance studio in Austria!!"
And the Nazi party is by no means long gone. Neo nazis wear old fashioned military uniforms all the time. Any cosplayer ignorant enough to wear one ( is it that hard to leave the space blank? To cover it up? ) should not be at a "family friendly" con. Or perhaps even on this earth.

Give me obese women in tiny fur bras all day, but please swastika wearing "history buffs" , stay away.
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Posted 22 June 2012 - 06:21 PM

Fly your Stars and Stripes, representing capitalist greed.

Fly your Union Jacks, representing Imperial conquest.

Fly your Hammer and Sickle, representing falsehoods of equality.

Fly your Rising Sun, representing fanatical devotion.

Fly your Swastika,
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#10 User is offline   OtakuAngelD 

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Posted 22 June 2012 - 06:55 PM

There are many many people in the world who deny the Holocost ever occured. While not condoning what many did, the uniform is a visible reminder that these events DID occur and that if we are not aware and careful could very well happen again. I understand that many find the uniform/insignia to be offensive, however, you must remember that it is just that. A uniform. Many men and women wear uniforms and it is the person under the mark that truly matters. Lest we not forget the likes of Schindler and the "Good man of Nanking", these Nazis used their influence and power in order to SAVE people. Hundred of Jews and Chinese peoples were saved by these man in Swastikas.

This post has been edited by OtakuAngelD: 22 June 2012 - 06:58 PM

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#11 User is offline   solanis 

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Posted 22 June 2012 - 07:42 PM

I can only assume that those of you who are posting in support of nazi uniforms are not jewish, or perhaps russian, or gay, or a person of color. As a jew, let me try to explain this to you guys in more understandable terms.

Imagine that when your grandparents were your age, or maybe even your parents, an army of men wearing special uniforms with a blue polka-dot sash came to chicago and murdered all the atheists and irish. Fast forward to today, you're at ACen, and a bunch of people are running around in blue polka-dot sashes. How would you feel?

For jews, and any other group impacted by the holocaust, we're not interested in getting a reminder of our family's murder not too long ago. Nazi uniforms are a symbol of fear, genocide, and hatred. When someone looks at a nazi uniform, they don't think "oh the nazis saved the chinese!" They think, "the nazis murdered millions of people." OtakuAngelID - the nazis who saved people were acting against the party/movement, not for it. They are an example of ANTI-NAZI individuals, and wearing a nazi uniform in their memory is seriously misguided. Do you actually think people wear a swastika for this purpose?

magicalgamer - whether they wanted to commit murder or not, they still did it wearing the uniform. The uniform symbolizes those murders.

Anyone who wears a nazi uniform is willingly walking around glamorizing a group of truly evil genocidal murderers. You can make any excuses you like, but that's how it is. The swastika is a symbol of hate, and just as effectively conveys "die jews" as if they wore an armband with "die jews" written on it. The willful ignorance and contrarian attitudes on display here are disgusting, to be honest...

#12 User is offline   OtakuAngelD 

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Posted 22 June 2012 - 08:12 PM

I am only saying that those people did truly kind and human acts while wearing that uniform. They USED that uniform and their position to help. They were still Nazis in the end. I can understand your posititon as a Jewish person, but as a person of German decent, I only wished to remind you that there were good people in that uniform as well as bad ones. The sad fact is that everyone remembers the bad ones. Nazis are still the most recognized villian in the world and used often in movies such as "Indiana Jones" and "Captain America" as well as in Anime such as "Hellsing", "Hetalia" and "Strike Witches"

A symbol is a symbol and only gains its power by the ones who veiw it. You view it as negative, thus it is negative to you. I myself would have ended up with the pink traingle, a symbol used by Nazi Germany. Yet, we have taken that symbol and now use in the gay community as a symbol of safety. At colleges, at least where I am from, that symbol marks locations where gays can go to talk to allies about anything that bothers them without fear. Maybe you and other vicimized people don't need a reminder, but how many others DO need one? To forget history is to repeat it.
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#13 User is offline   solanis 

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Posted 22 June 2012 - 08:22 PM

The only forgetting of history going on here is the glamorization of nazis. When we allow people to wear nazi uniforms without comment, we are minimizing the horrors the nazis committed, and this is the worst kind of history forgetting there is.

#14 User is offline   linlindesu 

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Posted 22 June 2012 - 08:24 PM

View PostKirbyFanOne, on 22 June 2012 - 06:21 PM, said:




Fly your Swastika, and prepare to have the above hypocrites shun you.

oh, hai thur.

Before you get on your "zomigawd, all flags are hate speech, every country had done something wrong"
No. The swastika is by no means a symbol of a country. It is a symbol of hate.
Most MUSEUMS in germany do not want swastikas around even for their historical value. Why? because it symbolizes a time when a once proud country was taken over by fear and hate.
Up until a few years back, many were even ashamed to fly the german flag.

This post has been edited by linlindesu: 23 June 2012 - 12:10 AM

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#15 User is offline   STVO 

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Posted 22 June 2012 - 10:57 PM

I'll put in my quick two cents of the Nazi swastikas I see at ACen. Personally, I don't think it's a good idea, especially if people are walking outside of the con or let's just say around the Hyatt or other hotels. There may be some older folks or people of Jewish descent that may take offense to seeing people doing some kind of portrayal of the Nazi parties. I understand some shows such as Hellsing have characters that are in fact from the Nazi party, but I personally think that leaving the Swastika off of your costume wouldn't be the worst thing.

Before you think I am being overly conservative, I'm not. Me personally, I don't get offended that easily offended by things such as this nor am I Jewish. I watch shows such as Wonder Showzen and South Park that portray things such as this and do worse things. Anyway, how I see it is I won't personally be offended if I see it nor will I call someone out for wearing Nazi costume or let's just say another hate group that has a negative view on a certain culture or religion (that is as long as it is portraying a character from a series from an anime/movie/comic/etc. and isn't an actual group member, especially one harassing others) but I personally can't blame a random hotel guest or someone else for being upset over something like that. I am quicker to defend someone who is scantily clad or even carrying fake guns/swords around, but this right here is something where I can't say "Oh lighten up!"

Edit #3: It is also kind of silly that I have known people who have been told not to endorse pot (one person dressed up as a pot leaf and was told to remove it at the con) but to allow this? Yes pot is illegal (and no I'm not a big advocator of it by any means) but to say "Hey you can't do that but we will allow a hate group to cosplay and allow Pedo Bears to roam the con" kind of contradictory don't you think? Stuff like this makes me say "Drop the 'family friendly convention' tagline, you're not fooling anyone."

This post has been edited by STVO: 22 June 2012 - 11:04 PM

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#16 User is offline   myrla 

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Posted 23 June 2012 - 09:10 AM

^ said it all.

I would never cosplay a character like that. I can honestly say I don't know why people do.

I understand you may like the anime and whatnot, but I don't necessarily agree with it there. I also think Pedobear shouldn't be allowed... But hey, it's from Anime, right, so it's okay? When are we allowing the KKK cosplayers in? Or maybe the Stalin/Lenin/Hitler cosplayers in? Of course, I understand that ACen is as "family friendly" as late night TV.

oh wait? You want to draw a line and only allow "some" and not all? Why that reeks of hypocrisy.

I say if people would like to dress like that.. wear the uniform without identifying Nazi insignia. You are still doing the character, but you are not setting anyone off. it would be a good middle line.

~

(psst, history buffs: Schindler WAS a registered Nazi, but did not wear the uniform. Schindler's List is a great movie, a better book, but if you read up on him, he was interested more in the business standpoint for much of the war. He still did undeniable good though.)

I've worked with the Shoah Foundation helping record testimonies. I've interviewed 9 camp survivors (a mix of Jew, Russian Orthodox, and atheist), a French Resistance worker, and a Nazi officer.

Yes. And when you walked in his house, he had a flag hanging proudly, and claimed Hitler was just "misunderstood" and "he didn't really mean to kill all those people."

After interviewing him, I can honestly say that not much surprises me in the world anymore. He was very polite, respectable, every inch a gentleman. I did not ask him if he killed anyone. We did not talk about that. I did not want to know. He submitted a written testimony, and I know he detailed many more things that we didn't go over in the interview, but I didn't want to read it.

I had nightmares for weeks. But it was worth it... so that the world still realizes how low we sunk in those years.

This post has been edited by myrla: 23 June 2012 - 09:11 AM

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#17 User is offline   magicalgamer 

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Posted 23 June 2012 - 10:22 AM

View Postsolanis, on 22 June 2012 - 07:42 PM, said:

I can only assume that those of you who are posting in support of nazi uniforms are not jewish, or perhaps russian, or gay, or a person of color. As a jew, let me try to explain this to you guys in more understandable terms...

For jews, and any other group impacted by the holocaust, we're not interested in getting a reminder of our family's murder not too long ago....

magicalgamer - whether they wanted to commit murder or not, they still did it wearing the uniform. The uniform symbolizes those murders.



I understand all points that you raised Solanis. In any war, history generally will say one side is right (good) and the other side is bad (evil). Any bad acts committed by the (good) has been overlooked in many cases.

As for being reminded, I wonder what Native American tribes think about the US uniform. We attacked them, murdered them, and stole their lands all under the attitude that we deserved to have the land. The government called it Manifest Destiny.
Does the Confederate Flag being displayed constantly in the south bring back strong reminders to families that had slaves or were slaves.

View PostOtakuAngelD, on 22 June 2012 - 08:12 PM, said:

Maybe you and other vicimized people don't need a reminder, but how many others DO need one? To forget history is to repeat it.

I hate to bring a current issue into this, but there was a story in the news a few weeks ago about a pastor who wanted to lock up all the gays until they die. Here we have a pastor who thinks a group is inferior and wants to get rid of them. I got in some heated discussions with people over this because I linked the pastor as wanting to doing the same things Hitler did.

Unfortunately as long as their are humans on this planet, there will be bad apples that will cause problems for others. It may be on a small scale or a large scale. History has shown that the bad stuff does get repeated. The the Spanish Inquisition and the holocaust may be the two historical genocides that people are aware of, but if you search online, you can see that genocides in varying degrees of scale are still occurring on the planet.

I know this is a hot topic for people so I wonder if the convention officials should look into it or ask attendees to weigh in on the issue. I wonder if the convention should adopt stronger rules for cosplayers.

The following is copied from the Gencon costume policy
"20th & 21st century uniforms may not be worn as costumes. These include any uniform that can be construed as a military uniform from any country or a uniform worn in an official capacity, such as security guard, police officer, deputy, fire marshal, paramedic, etc. Active duty military personnel are permitted to wear their government-issued uniforms."

Basically this bans uniforms. Would a policy like this work for ACen? It could if it were modified and only prohibit military uniforms. I would be interested to know how a policy like this would be received.

#18 User is offline   kahad 

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Posted 23 June 2012 - 10:42 AM

View Postmagicalgamer, on 23 June 2012 - 10:22 AM, said:

The following is copied from the Gencon costume policy
"20th & 21st century uniforms may not be worn as costumes. These include any uniform that can be construed as a military uniform from any country or a uniform worn in an official capacity, such as security guard, police officer, deputy, fire marshal, paramedic, etc. Active duty military personnel are permitted to wear their government-issued uniforms."

Considering the number of anime/video game cosplays that could pass as military uniforms, I do not think that could work.
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#19 User is offline   solanis 

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Posted 23 June 2012 - 10:50 AM

Why not ban swastika armbands then? Or swastikas worn on uniforms?

#20 User is offline   Visadin the insane 

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Posted 23 June 2012 - 01:03 PM

iCan understand dressing up as a nazi if it for something like hellsing and caption america, for photo's (cap punching nazis) but what the hell is with the idea of selling nazi stuff at cons? i don't hear of it, i hear people complane about booths selling non anime stuff like ponies, fur, and rave gear. but really, no one brought this up.
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#21 User is offline   Valkyrie 

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Posted 23 June 2012 - 01:15 PM

Gonna put on the IRT hat now.

Believe me when I say that we do understand how you feel. The uniforms do represent a very uncomfortable and traumatic part of world history and culture.

However, per ACen's mission statement, it would be wrong to ban to part of history or culture.

Yes, seeing a Nazi costume in full regalia may make some people uncomfortable or offended. But, it's also not illegal to wear. Freedom of expression laws protect that. Now, had those cosplayers been acting belligerently and spouting Anti-Semitic speeches, then yes, that would have given us due cause to tell them to stop. That was not the case in the situations you have described. These cosplayers were respectful of their fellow congoers, and did nothing to warrant corrective action.

Now, on the point of wearing a KKK costume. That brings me to my next point. If you decide that hey, you're going to wear that at ACen, that's your call. The very same laws protect you, provided that you aren't being disrespectful and aren't inciting a riot. BUT, would it be a wise thing to do? Very likely not, seeing as the KKK are still very much active.

What it boils down to is legality, judgment, and behavior. If the costume being depicted is legal, fine. If the cosplayer is behaving in a respectful manner with sound judgment, fine. Having a marijuana cosplay is not fine. Wearing a KKK uniform may be legal, but I wouldn't be too sure it would be well-received by fellow congoers. Nazi uniforms are, for all intents and purposes, fine so long as the wearer is behaving peacefully.

Also, there is no way we would be able to ban military uniforms. Not only would this destroy the cosplays of a grwat many congoers, but given that there are servicemen/women who come to the convention (Great Lakes Naval Base isn't far away), I'm gonna guess that wouldn't sit well with the military itself at all.

As to the merchandise, I'm pretty certain that you may have seen Hellsing, Marvel, and Hetalia merchandise. I know Ichigo's katana has a symbol representing the Japanese sigil for peace. Either way, if you have concerns about the merchandise or vendors, you will want to contact Exhibit Space management. (Voltaire30 is the DH of that section.)

This post has been edited by Valkyrie: 23 June 2012 - 01:22 PM

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#22 User is offline   linlindesu 

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Posted 23 June 2012 - 11:42 PM

View PostValkyrie, on 23 June 2012 - 01:15 PM, said:

Gonna put on the IRT hat now.

Believe me when I say that we do understand how you feel. The uniforms do represent a very uncomfortable and traumatic part of world history and culture.

However, per ACen's mission statement, it would be wrong to ban to part of history or culture.

Yes, seeing a Nazi costume in full regalia may make some people uncomfortable or offended. But, it's also not illegal to wear. Freedom of expression laws protect that. Now, had those cosplayers been acting belligerently and spouting Anti-Semitic speeches, then yes, that would have given us due cause to tell them to stop. That was not the case in the situations you have described. These cosplayers were respectful of their fellow congoers, and did nothing to warrant corrective action.

Now, on the point of wearing a KKK costume. That brings me to my next point. If you decide that hey, you're going to wear that at ACen, that's your call. The very same laws protect you, provided that you aren't being disrespectful and aren't inciting a riot. BUT, would it be a wise thing to do? Very likely not, seeing as the KKK are still very much active.

What it boils down to is legality, judgment, and behavior. If the costume being depicted is legal, fine. If the cosplayer is behaving in a respectful manner with sound judgment, fine. Having a marijuana cosplay is not fine. Wearing a KKK uniform may be legal, but I wouldn't be too sure it would be well-received by fellow congoers. Nazi uniforms are, for all intents and purposes, fine so long as the wearer is behaving peacefully.

Also, there is no way we would be able to ban military uniforms. Not only would this destroy the cosplays of a grwat many congoers, but given that there are servicemen/women who come to the convention (Great Lakes Naval Base isn't far away), I'm gonna guess that wouldn't sit well with the military itself at all.

As to the merchandise, I'm pretty certain that you may have seen Hellsing, Marvel, and Hetalia merchandise. I know Ichigo's katana has a symbol representing the Japanese sigil for peace. Either way, if you have concerns about the merchandise or vendors, you will want to contact Exhibit Space management. (Voltaire30 is the DH of that section.)

1. The KKK is actually slightly less prevalent in the States compared to Neo Nazis. Proof? Research Jeff Hall and the public office he was seeking? Pretty damn daunting.
2. the manji is not the "japanese symbol for peace". It is a religious symbol ( buddhist, hindu) for various meanings but peace really is not one. ( it may mark a buddhist temple, it may be depicted as a human,it may mean good luck, ).
3. As stupid as being a pot leaf is, honestly, a con would get that guy to change but let the nazi uniforms fly? I'm not saying drugs are totez rad and everyone should jump in but... for all you know the guy was a strange looking maple leaf. What I find REALLY funny... ACen friday there were some people CLEARLY acting a fool and high out of their mind by main programming. Did they get spoken to once while I was around them for 2 hours, nope. So I can do anything illegal I'd like but if I dress up as anything involved...
OH DID YOUR SHIRT SAY THE F WORD ON IT? THEY TOLD YA NOT TO CHANGE AND KEEP ON WITH YOUR FREEDOM OF 'SPRESSION? HOKAY!
HEY WAIT A SEC, PEDOBEAR IS ACTUALLY CONDONING HEALTHY RELATIONSHIPS BETWEEN TWO ADULTS? OK, I"MMA STOP RAGGING ON THE CONVENTION THEN.
4. I do not think you read the portion stating that members of the military could wear their uniforms. They were stating realistic military cosplay ( from nazi to modern marine) should not be occurring. Which makes more sense than ACen weapon rules. I'm waiting for someone to just paint a real gun blue at this point.
5. Respectful isn't always the case. Anime Boston "heil hitler " anyone?

The swastika is a hate symbol. Period. It should be considered the same as a vulgar word and ACen would only need to get a black roll of painters tape to let those in costume stay in costume.
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#23 User is offline   The Fujoshi 

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Posted 23 June 2012 - 11:57 PM

View PostRoark, on 22 June 2012 - 03:37 PM, said:

I'm really tired of people defending this the swastika using this reasoning.

<philosophy rant>
Symbols cannot have objective semantic meaning. Symbols, by their nature as part of language, only convey meaning contextually. A symbol removed from its context - time, place, or culture - necessarily loses or changes its semantics.
</rant>

The swastika obviously has overlapping semantics within ACen. However, I'd posit that the overwhelmingly agreed upon meaning is not "that symbol from Hellsing" or "that Asian good luck charm." Rather, most people's semantic associations with that symbol are "Nazi" and "Holocaust."

I'm hoping a few Holocaust survivors see kids cosplaying in Nazi symbols. I love when old people righteously chew out young'ins for being stupid.


No I wasn't defending it; I was pointing out how it originally was.

It's like the "N" word, which also has changed semantics. Now people here say it all the time and it's the norm but it's not really a good thing, nor it's origins. Mind you it has different meanings depending on who says it.

It simply depends on your views no matter what the background is.

When I see it I don't view it as Nazi or Holocaust at all. It's just a symbol that was originally luck and came from Japan (from what I read from blade of the immortal and a Vocaloid pv,) before Austria/Euro took it and shifted it around and now people hate it because of what it used to represent, not what the person wears it in general or how the person acts.

I'm not offended by it at all even with Germany background.

Actually Kirby said it pretty well. Very well. I find it funny that Pedobear is ok but this is a big no no.
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#24 User is offline   linlindesu 

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 12:18 AM

View PostThe Fujoshi, on 23 June 2012 - 11:57 PM, said:


When I see it I don't view it as Nazi or Holocaust at all. It's just a symbol that was originally luck and came from Japan (from what I read from blade of the immortal and a Vocaloid pv,) before Austria/Euro took it and shifted it around and now people hate it because of what it used to represent, not what the person wears it in general or how the person acts.



here. educate yourself http://symboldictionary.net/?p=1669
was not originally luck, or peace, and it is not even originally from japan.

This post has been edited by linlindesu: 24 June 2012 - 12:20 AM

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#25 User is offline   myrla 

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 01:17 PM

It was used in Troy in 1000bce... so predates whatever link you gave.

http://history1900s....tikahistory.htm is the most comprehensive that's easy to find.

With everything else said.. just doesn't give me warm fuzzes about going to ACen anymore.
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#26 User is offline   Evil_Nerd 

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 04:15 PM

View Postmyrla, on 24 June 2012 - 01:17 PM, said:

It was used in Troy in 1000bce... so predates whatever link you gave.

http://history1900s....tikahistory.htm is the most comprehensive that's easy to find.

With everything else said.. just doesn't give me warm fuzzes about going to ACen anymore.


I agree, this is kind off putting that ACen would even allow this.

#27 User is offline   solanis 

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 04:37 PM

If the replies by staff here are anything to go by, then "ACen: Nazis Welcome!" is indeed an appropriate tagline. How sickening.

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 05:13 PM

View Postsolanis, on 24 June 2012 - 04:37 PM, said:

If the replies by staff here are anything to go by, then "ACen: Nazis Welcome!" is indeed an appropriate tagline. How sickening.


I agree, even with one of the staff members also throwing the bit about the KKK costumes, just shows me that how willing ACen is going to look the other way with offensive behavior.

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#29 User is offline   Valkyrie 

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 06:05 PM

Let's be clear about this. I personally don't find these costumes appropriate. I'm merely stating them as an example. (And I do sincerely apologize for giving the wrong impression.)

Now, is the convention really saying "Nazis Welcome" in the sense that solanis is saying? No. But, I do acknowledge the point being made here that has put certain costumes in an awkward position.
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#30 User is offline   linlindesu 

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 06:35 PM

View Postmyrla, on 24 June 2012 - 01:17 PM, said:

It was used in Troy in 1000bce... so predates whatever link you gave.

http://history1900s....tikahistory.htm is the most comprehensive that's easy to find.

With everything else said.. just doesn't give me warm fuzzes about going to ACen anymore.

I was talking about just the manji ( the symbol's meanings to buddhism , etc. ) not to every swastika meaning as a whole. We'd be here for hours...

Valkyrie, if someone was wearing a shirt with loads of profanity it would be against con rules and they would be asked to change. How hard would it be to ask for a no swastika rule? Anyone who gets enraged has an issue. It isn't that hard for costumers or the convention.
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