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Other room blocks - will there be an announcement beforehand?

#61 User is offline   KungPowKirby 

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 11:38 AM

View PostLevel-5, on 18 October 2013 - 11:28 AM, said:

Thank you so much.

I was curious because I had a friend who claimed he used Hyatt points to get the whole Anime central weekend for free and I was wondering how in the world did he do that if the room was blocked off?

The Embassy isn't bad. It had mixed reviews like any hotel.

Pros-Microwave, big rooms, breakfast, happy hour bar and drinks, good beds, tons of space. Staff can hold items and is very helpful. A staff member actually helped me with a tie one time.

Cons-Some members reported staff of the Embassy being rude/snobbish/giving out wrong information but from what I seen in the threads it could had been miscommunication or a judgement of error on the person's fault. I personally never had issues with the staff.

Semi-con? You have to walk to the convention center a bit and its not at the action as the Hyatt and it kinda gets crowded when you first check in and when you leave but otherwise its ok.



In my experience you can use the points. I know friends who have done it before. I would call the hotel and speak to in house reservations vs the 800 number.
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Posted 18 October 2013 - 01:15 PM

View PostKungPowKirby, on 18 October 2013 - 11:38 AM, said:

In my experience you can use the points. I know friends who have done it before. I would call the hotel and speak to in house reservations vs the 800 number.


Tried that and they said that the room was blocked out by ACen and they couldn't tell me the room rate without the Anime central code :(

I think what Goldeneyeuro says is true though unless you know specifically what you did last time or your friend? Sorry if I'm asking a lot of questions; this is really frustrating because I have enough points to knock off a night or two which would make a difference :(

#63 User is offline   JujuFox 

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 01:25 PM

View PostLevel-5, on 18 October 2013 - 01:15 PM, said:

Tried that and they said that the room was blocked out by ACen and they couldn't tell me the room rate without the Anime central code Posted Image

I think what Goldeneyeuro says is true though unless you know specifically what you did last time or your friend? Sorry if I'm asking a lot of questions; this is really frustrating because I have enough points to knock off a night or two which would make a difference Posted Image


The room rates have been posted a long time ago. It's $178/night. You might have to actually try to book the room first, then when they ask if you have the membership you can ask to use your points. We have the membership thingy too, but never any points since they expire after a year, and we don't stay at hotels often enough.
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Posted 18 October 2013 - 02:43 PM

View PostAnimeGeek120, on 17 October 2013 - 10:25 PM, said:

and that's what confused me. I'm following the official group on Facebook but looking through my feed I couldn't find it. And I do see where it was posted on the website, but could I suggest for next year it go out in like a newsletter e-mail? I know some people who don't have Facebook(and I know more and more people spending less and less time on it). I just feel it should be put in as many places as possible with as much warning as possible.

I just have the bad luck of having 10 hour days for four days so my time online is very limited and my internet choose this week to basically not work until late yesterday.(with brief times the other days.)


This happened to me as well - following the ACen page, but it never showed up in the feed.

It would be best if the info could be put in as many places as possible.

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 03:05 PM

For those people missing the ACen updates, there are a few things you can do to ensure you never miss an update.

1. Go to the official page here.
2. Mouse over the Like button(or click it if you haven't liked the page before)
3. A drop down menu should appear, click on "Get notifications" and "Show in News Feed" - these should now have check marks next to them and be in bold
4.Click on "settings" in the same drop down menu
5.Select "All updates"
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Posted 18 October 2013 - 05:19 PM

View PostLevel-5, on 18 October 2013 - 01:15 PM, said:

Tried that and they said that the room was blocked out by ACen and they couldn't tell me the room rate without the Anime central code :(/>

I think what Goldeneyeuro says is true though unless you know specifically what you did last time or your friend? Sorry if I'm asking a lot of questions; this is really frustrating because I have enough points to knock off a night or two which would make a difference :(/>


They are on this forum- if they wish to give details they can - I was not involved in using the room or it's booking so I can not tell you what they did. It was for the Hyatt. Perhaps your trying a different hotel?
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Posted 18 October 2013 - 05:46 PM

View PostJujuFox, on 18 October 2013 - 01:25 PM, said:

The room rates have been posted a long time ago. It's $178/night. You might have to actually try to book the room first, then when they ask if you have the membership you can ask to use your points. We have the membership thingy too, but never any points since they expire after a year, and we don't stay at hotels often enough.


No I mean the room rates without the Anime central code. Nobody could tell me unless 178/night is the one without the code.

I tried to book the room first and then asked on the phone if I could use my Hilton honor points because I had to put in my Hilton honors number. The first time they said that they couldn't even book that date because it was blocked off from May 15-18 and the second time a lady told me that they could not book a room using that because Anime central had the whole hotel booked up for the convention, which I found weird.

View PostKungPowKirby, on 18 October 2013 - 05:19 PM, said:

They are on this forum- if they wish to give details they can - I was not involved in using the room or it's booking so I can not tell you what they did. It was for the Hyatt. Perhaps your trying a different hotel?


Well I was trying to do it for the Embassy because I'm a Hilton honors member and I heard about it so I assumed it was possible to do so from this thread :(/> I think people are getting confused.

Could you pm me the details please? I'm going to ask anyway. This is really frustrating because the hotel doesn't know what I'm talking about and to ask ACen since they reserved the block and Anime central doesn't know what I'm talking about and to call the hotel for the third time. Its probably too late now. :/

This post has been edited by Level-5: 18 October 2013 - 05:47 PM


#68 User is offline   KungPowKirby 

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 08:04 PM

View PostLevel-5, on 18 October 2013 - 05:46 PM, said:

No I mean the room rates without the Anime central code. Nobody could tell me unless 178/night is the one without the code.

I tried to book the room first and then asked on the phone if I could use my Hilton honor points because I had to put in my Hilton honors number. The first time they said that they couldn't even book that date because it was blocked off from May 15-18 and the second time a lady told me that they could not book a room using that because Anime central had the whole hotel booked up for the convention, which I found weird.



Well I was trying to do it for the Embassy because I'm a Hilton honors member and I heard about it so I assumed it was possible to do so from this thread :(/>/>/> I think people are getting confused.

Could you pm me the details please? I'm going to ask anyway. This is really frustrating because the hotel doesn't know what I'm talking about and to ask ACen since they reserved the block and Anime central doesn't know what I'm talking about and to call the hotel for the third time. Its probably too late now. :/


Im sorry I dont have any details to PM you, as I didnt book the room. I wont give the name out of people who have done this- they check the forums enough that if they wish to contact you they will. Hilton is a completely different company then Hyatt - before you had asked

Quote

Question: Has anyone used Hilton honor points or Hyatt points for the hotels for free rooms? I tried and I couldn't do it because they said the room block was shut off from regular reservations :(/>
- therefore I answered for what I knew about Hyatt. You did not specify that you wanted to use it for just the Embassy and Ive never stayed there. Sorry that I cant help. Your probably right thats its too late though- I know the Embassy fills up very fast for ACen.

This post has been edited by KungPowKirby: 18 October 2013 - 08:05 PM

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Posted 27 October 2013 - 12:12 PM

I called Hyatt and Embassy and this is what they told me:

Embassy: Since Anime central has the whole hotel under their room block there is no way you can use points at this hotel and there is no way you can get a room outside of the room block. Period.

Hyatt: You can not use the anime central room block along with your points. Its one or the other and you have to do it before the room block is announced.

Can staff confirm this? Also the website says its not full and I just called both hotels and they said both the Hyatt as well as the Embassy are sold out completely!

I find this frustrating because I thought ACen would be on point with information like this and I'm getting replies from members who are just as confused as myself rather than the staff (except for that minor room rate code confusion.) >.>; I already have a room but I find it frustrating that I have to pay around 710 USD for four nights and I have enough points to make it free and I can't.

Sorry if I'm snapping but like I said this is frustrating because the hotel is giving me more information than ACen. If I knew this in advance I would had booked ahead or at a different hotel.

This post has been edited by Level-5: 27 October 2013 - 12:14 PM


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Posted 29 October 2013 - 07:51 AM

Hyatt points was used last year with no issue. Not sure if this is something that has changed.

Hyatt and Embassy sold out? Wouldn't be surprised...well more shocked if they still have much available at this point.

This post has been edited by rondo: 30 October 2013 - 07:59 AM


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Posted 29 October 2013 - 02:33 PM

Our hotel guru is checking on status's of rooms, but it looks like there's still space at the Crowne and DoubleTree

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 01:30 PM

View Postrondo, on 29 October 2013 - 07:51 AM, said:

Hyatt points was used last year with no issue. Not sure if this is something that has changed.

Hyatt and Embassy sold out? Wouldn't be surprised...well more shocked if they still have much available at this point.


I called both hotels when I made that post and both were sold out. The lady on the phone told me that Hilton honor points can not be used because Anime central had the whole hotel under the room block (you need to make a reservation outside of it.)

Hyatt told me the same thing but not all of their rooms were under the block but they were sold out as well (outside of the room block as well as within)

Sorry I'm just annoyed because I have to find room mates just to cover the room cost. None of my friends are going this year so its going to be hard >.>;

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 01:32 PM

View PostLevel-5, on 30 October 2013 - 01:30 PM, said:

I called both hotels when I made that post and both were sold out. The lady on the phone told me that Hilton honor points can not be used because Anime central had the whole hotel under the room block (you need to make a reservation outside of it.)

Hyatt told me the same thing but not all of their rooms were under the block but they were sold out as well (outside of the room block as well as within)

Sorry I'm just annoyed because I have to find room mates just to cover the room cost. None of my friends are going this year so its going to be hard >.>;


Yeah, I'm doing the usual split but man, the price stings when doing 4 nights -_-

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 02:50 PM

They are almost sold out at both the Hyatt and Embassy, there were a couple king rooms this morning at both, but I doubt for long. Points cant be used on block rooms, but if you manage to book outside the blocks they can be used.

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 07:05 PM

View PostPurplegodess, on 30 October 2013 - 02:50 PM, said:

They are almost sold out at both the Hyatt and Embassy, there were a couple king rooms this morning at both, but I doubt for long. Points cant be used on block rooms, but if you manage to book outside the blocks they can be used.


I called three times; the 27th they told me that all rooms at the embassy are sold out. King and otherwise. Is there any information you can confirm about what I said previously? That Anime central does have the whole hotel for the Embassy blocked off (which I have no idea why) so that you can't get rooms outside of the block?

The Hyatt you can (I've discovered late) but they were sold out when I called on the 27th. I'll try tomorrow morning (again with the Hyatt.)

So far I'm hearing two different types of information from the hotel as well as Anime central staff. The Hotel told me that Anime central itself has most of the rooms if not all under their 'block' and its impossible to get a room outside of the block unless you 1)Go to a hotel not under anime central or 2)Use the hyatt which is the only hotel without a room block as well as a room block.

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 03:28 PM

Hotels are always going to keep some rooms outside of the hotel blocks. They have to for contracts they keep with other people. The only thing we have control over is our hotel block. If the hotel says you cant get those rooms it may be the dates you are looking for, sometimes the only rooms left are for only Friday or only Saturday. If you are looking to spend points on a room you will need to find a room outside our block somewhere, we do not have control over those rooms/what is availble/ and when they might release those rooms. If you want to use one of the hotel blocks we've provided, your best bets now are the Crowne or the DoubleTree, especially if you are looking for full weekend rooms.

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 11:57 AM

View PostPurplegodess, on 01 November 2013 - 03:28 PM, said:

Hotels are always going to keep some rooms outside of the hotel blocks. They have to for contracts they keep with other people. The only thing we have control over is our hotel block. If the hotel says you cant get those rooms it may be the dates you are looking for, sometimes the only rooms left are for only Friday or only Saturday. If you are looking to spend points on a room you will need to find a room outside our block somewhere, we do not have control over those rooms/what is availble/ and when they might release those rooms. If you want to use one of the hotel blocks we've provided, your best bets now are the Crowne or the DoubleTree, especially if you are looking for full weekend rooms.


From what they told me the Embassy doesn't have any rooms outside of the room block during the dates of Anime central this year at all and implied that it was either a decision by anime central contract with the hotel or otherwise. That Thursday-Sunday are all under the room block for those dates.

I already have a room I just wanted to clear some mis information up because there isn't any information on the website and I'm getting mixed information from the actual hotels compared to Anime central. Its like nobody has done this before (staff wise) or have a clear idea? I'm going by the statement Points cant be used on block rooms, but if you manage to book outside the blocks they can be used. which contradicts what the hotel told me.

Sorry if I'm asking a lot but I wanted to know for next year so I can either book in advance or I can figure out what hotels to book in so I can get free rooms rather than pay 400+ USD.

Thank you so far for answering my questions!

This post has been edited by Level-5: 03 November 2013 - 11:59 AM


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Posted 03 November 2013 - 09:03 PM

I am going to try and clear up a few things, since there seems to be a disconnect somewhere for some reason...

View PostLevel-5, on 03 November 2013 - 11:57 AM, said:

From what they told me the Embassy doesn't have any rooms outside of the room block during the dates of Anime central this year at all and implied that it was either a decision by anime central contract with the hotel or otherwise. That Thursday-Sunday are all under the room block for those dates.


We don't know what the other hotels' have contracted out, and we can't require that they tell us. So we can only assume that we are not the only ones. Based on what you claim to have been told by the hotel, we may have the entire block, or another group has a block that can't be announced. We don't know.

View PostLevel-5, on 03 November 2013 - 11:57 AM, said:

I already have a room I just wanted to clear some mis information up because there isn't any information on the website and I'm getting mixed information from the actual hotels compared to Anime central. Its like nobody has done this before (staff wise) or have a clear idea?


You aren't receiving mixed information. If what the hotel says is true, then we have the entire hotel, but you need to understand that we can't require them to release to us what their other contracts are (or even if there is one that isn't announceable). So please calm down.

View PostLevel-5, on 03 November 2013 - 11:57 AM, said:

I'm going by the statement Points cant be used on block rooms, but if you manage to book outside the blocks they can be used. which contradicts what the hotel told me.


This is not a contradiction, this is a qualification. A contradiction is a combination of statements, ideas, or features of a situation that are categorically opposed to one another. While a qualification is the action or fact of qualifying or being eligible for something. Therefore, the situation stands that you can't use points towards the ACen room block, but if there are rooms outside of the block (or other blocks) you could use them towards that. So if there are no rooms outside of the block, you won't be able to use your points, but if there are rooms outside of the block, you could use them. Does that make sense?

Don't worry about asking too many questions. It is perfectly normal to gather as much information as you can before moving forward, especially on an expensive endeavor.

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 04:22 PM

So I just saw that the Crowne Plaza and Aloft are opening shortly. Is the Hilton not going to be part of the room groups this year? I've been waiting around hoping to snag one of those since missing out on double beds at the Embassy.

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 08:08 PM

The Hilton is not planned to be in our hotel blocks this year, you can reserve regular rooms with them.

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 11:19 PM

I've actually tried a couple times and they've been totally booked/won't let you choose the proper dates, so I assumed it was because they had rooms blocked out of ACen. But it must be for a different event or something. Thanks for letting me know.

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Posted 07 November 2013 - 07:31 AM

View PostIris, on 06 November 2013 - 11:19 PM, said:

I've actually tried a couple times and they've been totally booked/won't let you choose the proper dates, so I assumed it was because they had rooms blocked out of ACen. But it must be for a different event or something. Thanks for letting me know.

It looks like you can book with them on priceline. rate is a tad steep ( I think 189?) but not horrendous.
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Posted 07 November 2013 - 08:19 AM

Yeah I was playing around with it last night and figured out that they do have King Rooms, but it's really a double I wanted. So oh well. I'll just have to decide if I'd rather stick with my king at the Embassy or my double at the double tree. Thanks for trying to help!

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Posted 07 November 2013 - 01:04 PM

So when I saw this topic on the forums page, all it said was "Other room blocks...will th-"
I was really hoping it would say "will they blend" XD
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Posted 08 November 2013 - 10:09 AM

ouch, $178 a night as a bit of a jump from $147, and losing the Hilton as a "partner" hotel doesn't help.
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Posted 08 November 2013 - 11:18 AM

Probably a better place to ask this, but since my options have kind of shrank without the Hilton I wanted to ask if anyone knew if the Doubletree still had connecting rooms? I remember when I went there like.. 8 years ago they did and it was pretty neat to have the middle doors open so the 8 people could mill back and forth between the two rooms. Do they still have those (as long as you request them) or did the get rid of the connecting rooms?

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 03:56 PM

I don't know if they have any left, but that hotel hasn't gone though a remodel to remove anything and a long time. I would suggest calling because that's the only way to try an get a connecting room.

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Posted 10 November 2013 - 01:24 PM

View PostVoltaire30, on 03 November 2013 - 09:03 PM, said:

I am going to try and clear up a few things, since there seems to be a disconnect somewhere for some reason...


We don't know what the other hotels' have contracted out, and we can't require that they tell us. So we can only assume that we are not the only ones. Based on what you claim to have been told by the hotel, we may have the entire block, or another group has a block that can't be announced. We don't know.


I'm curious. Does the hotel not inform anime central of this during the contract when they set the rate? I thought it would be likely they would mention this little detail of room space/options considering that the Hyatt, the main "Close to the action" hotel isn't under the anime central room block (the entire hotel that is,) but the Embassy is (which I found strange.) I'm not sure about the Double Tree (which I have to call to see if they have better room options or any left open.) Like why would ACen put one hotel under an entire block but not the rest?


View PostVoltaire30, on 03 November 2013 - 09:03 PM, said:

You aren't receiving mixed information. If what the hotel says is true, then we have the entire hotel, but you need to understand that we can't require them to release to us what their other contracts are (or even if there is one that isn't announceable). So please calm down.


It seems like I'm receiving mixed information because I was informed by staff at anime central that they had rooms left (which they did not then they did,) and that the website is posted via real time (which sn't,) and that I can book a room (no matter what hotel) outside of the anime central room block if I so choose (which I can't apparently with some hotels.)

View PostVoltaire30, on 03 November 2013 - 09:03 PM, said:

This is not a contradiction, this is a qualification. A contradiction is a combination of statements, ideas, or features of a situation that are categorically opposed to one another. While a qualification is the action or fact of qualifying or being eligible for something. Therefore, the situation stands that you can't use points towards the ACen room block, but if there are rooms outside of the block (or other blocks) you could use them towards that. So if there are no rooms outside of the block, you won't be able to use your points, but if there are rooms outside of the block, you could use them. Does that make sense?


Its a contradiction because PurpleGoddess has stated:

Points cant be used on block rooms, but if you manage to book outside the blocks they can be used.[b]

The Embassy:

[b]Anime central during the dates of May 15-18 has the whole hotel under its room block and there's no way we can provide you an open room to use your points because the whole hotel is under Anime central's room block and cut off from having an open room during those dates.


This is what Embassy told me three times that I've called in October. The date before the room block was open, when the room block open, and a week or so later when rooms were still open. The lady even tried to book another room outside of the one I had to see if it was possible and no. Anime central has the whole hotel under its rate and its impossible to do the above action within the Embassy and maybe a few other hotels under Anime central room block. I can have them email me or fax this if you want but this is what they told me over the phone.

The Double tree I'm not sure but the only hotel that you can do this fact with is the Hyatt. There is nothing on the website stating this, nor the forums. I even got miss information from a member here Kung pow (who said someone would pm me and they never did,) before a staff member could help me.

I just find it weird that there isn't a Customer service or a good CS outside of the forums. There's no email here, there doesn't seem to be a logical way outside of posting to get mods or staff help, I've asked on the facebook about badges and was ignored so I didn't want to post this problem and be ignored too, and it took a while before someone (other than members) answered my question (abit late.) With some members that are trying to answer questions they have no idea about or no knowledge about. Kung Pow admitted that he (or she I don't know,) never booked a room by themselves but a friend did (that never confirmed what they said was right or even valid,) but found it nice to help me without personal experience.

View PostVoltaire30, on 03 November 2013 - 09:03 PM, said:

Don't worry about asking too many questions. It is perfectly normal to gather as much information as you can before moving forward, especially on an expensive endeavor.


Sorry if I seem snappish but I'm paying 750+ dollars on a double bed suite at the Embassy. I wanted to get the embassy not only because it had free breakfast but because I have hotel points to get a 100% free room if I so wished. I was under the impression (by Anime central,) that this was possible because the forum or website would had said otherwise.

when I discovered the Embassy have no free rooms outside of the room block I became frustrated. The Hyatt only had at the time rooms under its room block from when I called around so I couldn't use points for that as a back up. So I'm either stuck trying to find strangers (which scares me) to help me with an almost 800+ room or not go to ACen at all because in the long run I'm paying close to 800 dollars to go. :(/> I wanted one of those two because I'm going to cosplay someone with gear and they were the closest in distance to Anime central.

This post has been edited by Level-5: 10 November 2013 - 01:30 PM


#89 User is offline   KungPowKirby 

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Posted 10 November 2013 - 04:21 PM

View PostLevel-5, on 10 November 2013 - 01:24 PM, said:

I'm curious. Does the hotel not inform anime central of this during the contract when Kung Pow admitted that he (or she I don't know,) never booked a room by themselves but a friend did (that never confirmed what they said was right or even valid,) but found it nice to help me without personal experience.



Actually my friend did confirm what I said to you here:

View Postrondo, on 29 October 2013 - 07:51 AM, said:

Hyatt points was used last year with no issue. Not sure if this is something that has changed.

Hyatt and Embassy sold out? Wouldn't be surprised...well more shocked if they still have much available at this point.


PurpleGoddess/mods/staff/etc:

Is the person who dealt with the room blocks the last few years, still the one dealing with hotels? Perhaps you can have him contact Level-5 to answer their specific questions on how to do things? They arent getting the answers they want/need here.
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Posted 14 November 2013 - 11:20 PM

View PostLevel-5, on 10 November 2013 - 01:24 PM, said:

I'm curious. Does the hotel not inform anime central of this during the contract when they set the rate? I thought it would be likely they would mention this little detail of room space/options considering that the Hyatt, the main "Close to the action" hotel isn't under the anime central room block (the entire hotel that is,) but the Embassy is (which I found strange.) I'm not sure about the Double Tree (which I have to call to see if they have better room options or any left open.) Like why would ACen put one hotel under an entire block but not the rest?


It seems like I'm receiving mixed information because I was informed by staff at anime central that they had rooms left (which they did not then they did,) and that the website is posted via real time (which sn't,) and that I can book a room (no matter what hotel) outside of the anime central room block if I so choose (which I can't apparently with some hotels.)




Inform ACen of what? That the entirety of hotel's available rooms are part of a block? Yes. ACen is aware of this when the contracts are approved and the rates are set. The number of rooms available and/or other active contracts are reasons why some hotels allow for all their available rooms to be blocked, but other hotels don't.


Which website are you referring to that is posted via real time?

In regards to booking a room, at any of the hotels, outside of the ACen room block. It's up to the hotel if they are going to make those rooms available, if any are available, to the public. If a hotel keeps any rooms from being included within the room blocks that are contracted, they are typically for emergency or other contractual purposes. (ie... Flight crews that get laid over or issues with a room that is currently being use and a slue of other reasons.)


View PostLevel-5, on 10 November 2013 - 01:24 PM, said:

Its a contradiction because PurpleGoddess has stated:

Points cant be used on block rooms, but if you manage to book outside the blocks they can be used.[b]

The Embassy:

[b]Anime central during the dates of May 15-18 has the whole hotel under its room block and there's no way we can provide you an open room to use your points because the whole hotel is under Anime central's room block and cut off from having an open room during those dates.

This is what Embassy told me three times that I've called in October. The date before the room block was open, when the room block open, and a week or so later when rooms were still open. The lady even tried to book another room outside of the one I had to see if it was possible and no. Anime central has the whole hotel under its rate and its impossible to do the above action within the Embassy and maybe a few other hotels under Anime central room block. I can have them email me or fax this if you want but this is what they told me over the phone.



Not a contradiction. Clearly stated that "Points can't be used on block rooms, but if you manage to book outside the blocks they can be used" and the Embassy stated "Anime central during the dates of May 15-18 has the whole hotel under its room block and there's no way we can provide you an open room to use your points because the whole hotel is under Anime central's room block and cut off from having an open room during those dates."




View PostLevel-5, on 10 November 2013 - 01:24 PM, said:

The Double tree I'm not sure but the only hotel that you can do this fact with is the Hyatt. There is nothing on the website stating this, nor the forums. I even got miss information from a member here Kung pow (who said someone would pm me and they never did,) before a staff member could help me.


Are you referring to using points at DoubleTree or Hyatt for rooms within the ACen blocks?
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