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2013 Gripes

#211 User is offline   Allison 

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Posted 09 December 2013 - 12:53 AM

View PostSiren_N0el, on 26 November 2013 - 02:07 PM, said:

Absolutely remove Synergy and move Soap Bubble to Friday, leaving saturday evening mostly CONGESTION-free for Masquerade and/or Madness.
Two dances is outrageous and it clearly causes issues more often than not. There is no way to check for ages of attendees for the dances, and this becomes an issue of safety and legality with minors raving into the early morning and having run-ins with people that do not posess innocent intentions. Simple as that.

Make age restrictions with color-coding the badges or a sticker on the badge prior to printing it, etc.
This is a safety issue. and With that said, kick one of the dances. I know both dances are there to spike attendee numbers, but at what cost? People are fading from this convention because it is falling from its glory days. There is less Anime, less ANYTHING true to the nature of the convention (raves? two of them? really?) and less integrity to show for it. Get back to basics.



Because the "suggestions for 2014" thread has been temporarily closed for this debate, and I do think this is a rather important issue that should be addressed sooner rather than later, I'm going to state my thoughts here in the best way I can.

I think we can all agree that having the two dances would be best for con-goers. As noted, Synergy fulfills a different purpose and has an entirely different atmosphere than Soap Bubble, plus the amount of people that attend both is rather large. Discontinuing HCS would probably add more problems to Soap Bubble, and making it 18 or under probably wouldn't be any fun for the minors who attend either rave.

Because let's face it: people can sugar coat the name to "dance" or "party" all they like, but the reason that it's often referred to as a rave is because there is questionable activity going on that is comparable to a rave. The reason that minors attend these "dances" in the first place is because they want to party and engage in the same questionable activity that adults do.

Anyway, the only difference between an actual rave and soap bubble is that a rave is generally underground and illegal because of the illegal activity that goes on there. If a minor attends an actual rave, it doesn't mean as much because the entirety of the event was probably illegal to begin with.

Where it gets sticky is that ACen is (or is run by) an official business, who technically, by knowing about said questionable activity by both minors and adults but not doing anything about it, are condoning illegal activity, especially if a minor engages in a crime or an adult commits a crime concerning a minor.

That being said, I think a color-coded badge system would be best because:
1.) ACen can save their asses more easily if a minor does sneak in and commit a crime. As stated in the previous thread, it wouldn't be ACen's fault if a negligent guardian (or the minor his/herself) didn't oversee what badge their kid was wearing.
2.) It would place a lot less "jail bait" tension on Soap Bubble attendees, also noted in the previous thread.
3.) I'm sure some minors wouldn't want to go through the trouble of finding an adult badge, therefore, soap bubble crowds would be lessened, if only a little bit.

Regardless of what ACen decides to do, crimes committed by adults against minors isn't something to handle lightly, nor is the liability ACen could potentially face if a minor was caught doing illegal activity. I think it's also more absurd that people get carded to get into Hentai panels, and IRT staff manages to do that, yet the potential crimes committed at Soap Bubble aren't enough to warrant such a thing for Soap Bubble.

I'm also curious as to see if ACen staff has any thoughts regarding the manner, perhaps why they've decided not to participate in age-restricted dances or if they've been thinking about implementing such procedures.

#212 User is offline   DJ Jeffito 

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Posted 09 December 2013 - 12:56 AM

View PostAllison, on 09 December 2013 - 12:53 AM, said:

Because the "suggestions for 2014" thread has been temporarily closed for this debate, and I do think this is a rather important issue that should be addressed sooner rather than later, I'm going to state my thoughts here in the best way I can.

I think we can all agree that having the two dances would be best for con-goers. As noted, Synergy fulfills a different purpose and has an entirely different atmosphere than Soap Bubble, plus the amount of people that attend both is rather large. Discontinuing HCS would probably add more problems to Soap Bubble, and making it 18 or under probably wouldn't be any fun for the minors who attend either rave.

Because let's face it: people can sugar coat the name to "dance" or "party" all they like, but the reason that it's often referred to as a rave is because there is questionable activity going on that is comparable to a rave. The reason that minors attend these "dances" in the first place is because they want to party and engage in the same questionable activity that adults do.

Anyway, the only difference between an actual rave and soap bubble is that a rave is generally underground and illegal because of the illegal activity that goes on there. If a minor attends an actual rave, it doesn't mean as much because the entirety of the event was probably illegal to begin with.

Where it gets sticky is that ACen is (or is run by) an official business, who technically, by knowing about said questionable activity by both minors and adults but not doing anything about it, are condoning illegal activity, especially if a minor engages in a crime or an adult commits a crime concerning a minor.

That being said, I think a color-coded badge system would be best because:
1.) ACen can save their asses more easily if a minor does sneak in and commit a crime. As stated in the previous thread, it wouldn't be ACen's fault if a negligent guardian (or the minor his/herself) didn't oversee what badge their kid was wearing.
2.) It would place a lot less "jail bait" tension on Soap Bubble attendees, also noted in the previous thread.
3.) I'm sure some minors wouldn't want to go through the trouble of finding an adult badge, therefore, soap bubble crowds would be lessened, if only a little bit.

Regardless of what ACen decides to do, crimes committed by adults against minors isn't something to handle lightly, nor is the liability ACen could potentially face if a minor was caught doing illegal activity. I think it's also more absurd that people get carded to get into Hentai panels, and IRT staff manages to do that, yet the potential crimes committed at Soap Bubble aren't enough to warrant such a thing for Soap Bubble.

I'm also curious as to see if ACen staff has any thoughts regarding the manner, perhaps why they've decided not to participate in age-restricted dances or if they've been thinking about implementing such procedures.


As someone who DJs/runs "underground raves", I can tell you that a majotiry of what people think of being a "rave" is absolutely outdated to real practices and standards today. I seriously questions how many people who talk smack about "raves" actually have ever been to one.
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#213 User is offline   Allison 

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Posted 09 December 2013 - 01:00 AM

View PostDJ Jeffito, on 09 December 2013 - 12:56 AM, said:

As someone who DJs/runs "underground raves", I can tell you that a majotiry of what people think of being a "rave" is absolutely outdated to real practices and standards today. I seriously questions how many people who talk smack about "raves" actually have ever been to one.


Regardless, Soap Bubble is referred to as a rave because of the type of music it plays and certain illegal activity that tends to happen there, both of which are categorized in the colloquial definition of "rave."

#214 User is offline   DJ Jeffito 

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Posted 09 December 2013 - 01:02 AM

View PostAllison, on 09 December 2013 - 01:00 AM, said:

Regardless, Soap Bubble is referred to as a rave because of the type of music it plays and certain illegal activity that tends to happen there, both of which are categorized in the colloquial definition of "rave."


I swear I'm not trying to sounds pretentious. I already got a warning for that in the other thread.

But how does the music define what is a "rave"? If you've been to the Soap Bubble and Hardcore Synergy in the last few years, the two have overlapped immensely with genres AND performers.

So explain to me how the music determines what a "rave" is again?

Also, certain illegal activities? How does illegal activities that occur in main programming differ from activities in other parts of the convention?

This post has been edited by DJ Jeffito: 09 December 2013 - 01:02 AM

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#215 User is offline   DJ Jeffito 

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Posted 09 December 2013 - 01:05 AM

Is it the job of a security officer at a 24 hour Walmart to police up everyone breaking curfew in that particular Walmart store?

IRT does not equal police. Not to condone illegal activities, but IRT can not take the role of uniformed police personnel.

I made a couple of suggestions in the other thread that I believe, as someone who has DJed at nearly 50 convention dances in the past 3 years, are a foundation for addressing real security concerns about the dances at ACen.

This post has been edited by DJ Jeffito: 09 December 2013 - 01:07 AM

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#216 User is offline   Allison 

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Posted 09 December 2013 - 01:13 AM

View PostDJ Jeffito, on 09 December 2013 - 01:02 AM, said:

I swear I'm not trying to sounds pretentious. I already got a warning for that in the other thread.

But how does the music define what is a "rave"? If you've been to the Soap Bubble and Hardcore Synergy in the last few years, the two have overlapped immensely with genres AND performers.

So explain to me how the music determines what a "rave" is again?

Also, certain illegal activities? How does illegal activities that occur in main programming differ from activities in other parts of the convention?


People tend to associate house/techno/dubstep music with raves. Such music is played at Soap Bubble.
People also associate the use of a certain drug at raves. There is not a doubt in my mind that this substance, among others, has been consumed at Soap Bubble.
Again, it's not so much the formal definition as it is what people think the definition is and what they associate it with.

Also, define "other parts of the convention." I'm sure that people do god-knows-what kind of illegal activity in their hotel room, but ACen probably has little-no liability because they do not own the hotel and aren't responsible for the rooms its attendees reside in (not sure how the room block situation works with that). I would also assume that illegal substances being consumed at Soap Bubble itself are much higher than any other event at the con. As far as crimes such as robbery, sexual harassment, etc. I agree that the likelihood of that happening is more or less the same in other parts of the convention, however, Soap Bubble has an entirely different atmosphere. There's a lot more physical activity, dark room, and large crowds that make finding IRT staff more difficult. If a girl was being harassed in the dealer's room, for instance, she has a lot more resources to find help because the situation is open, public, and people are readily available. I feel as if that's not so much the case at Soap Bubble.

#217 User is offline   Allison 

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Posted 09 December 2013 - 01:17 AM

View PostDJ Jeffito, on 09 December 2013 - 01:05 AM, said:

Is it the job of a security officer at a 24 hour Walmart to police up everyone breaking curfew in that particular Walmart store?

IRT does not equal police. Not to condone illegal activities, but IRT can not take the role of uniformed police personnel.

I made a couple of suggestions in the other thread that I believe, as someone who has DJed at nearly 50 convention dances in the past 3 years, are a foundation for addressing real security concerns about the dances at ACen.


And I agree with you. There's no way IRT is going to be able to police everything, let alone trivial issues such as curfew (which let's be honest, not that many people care about any way, minors or adults). But ACen could lessen its liability tenfold through the colored badges, not to mention, it would make the Soap Bubble experience better for a lot of people, as mentioned earlier.

#218 User is offline   DJ Jeffito 

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Posted 09 December 2013 - 01:24 AM

View PostAllison, on 09 December 2013 - 01:13 AM, said:

People tend to associate house/techno/dubstep music with raves. Such music is played at Soap Bubble.
People also associate the use of a certain drug at raves. There is not a doubt in my mind that this substance, among others, has been consumed at Soap Bubble.
Again, it's not so much the formal definition as it is what people think the definition is and what they associate it with.

Also, define "other parts of the convention." I'm sure that people do god-knows-what kind of illegal activity in their hotel room, but ACen probably has little-no liability because they do not own the hotel and aren't responsible for the rooms its attendees reside in (not sure how the room block situation works with that). I would also assume that illegal substances being consumed at Soap Bubble itself are much higher than any other event at the con. As far as crimes such as robbery, sexual harassment, etc. I agree that the likelihood of that happening is more or less the same in other parts of the convention, however, Soap Bubble has an entirely different atmosphere. There's a lot more physical activity, dark room, and large crowds that make finding IRT staff more difficult. If a girl was being harassed in the dealer's room, for instance, she has a lot more resources to find help because the situation is open, public, and people are readily available. I feel as if that's not so much the case at Soap Bubble.


....

I can't even...

Those three genres you mentioned were at Hardcore Synergy too. Guess what, there was even hardcore at Soap Bubble in 2013! Music does not define "rave" or what you may associate the negative connotations of what "rave" means.

I think people have a VERY misunderstood view of both Hardcore Synergy and Soap Bubble.

I understand a big, scary, dark room might be fuel for "illegal activities" but I strongly don't believe that's the case. I recently came from another meeting regarding a different rave and the topic of bags came up. Someone said no bags of any kind, including small hand bags/small purses to which I disagreed with. I think backpacks, camelbaks, etc should not be allowed but small bags (small purses/handbags) should be ok. They're reasoning was "they could sneak in alcohol in small bags too!" I mean really? Honestly, should ACen start giving people patdowns now?

Yes, there are security concerns with ALL events. However, not trying to empathize with your conflicting side and just spewing assumptions of what the other side think/views of a dance that has history (a lot of people dedicated to make sure it runs well and safely, and people who promote all year round to make sure it's a fun event) is just ignorant.

Yes, it's a large dance. Yes, it's hard to make sure "illegal activities" aren't taking place. Small steps:

1) Blue light stations, like down at UIC, where IRT are housed at on each corner of the room, even some back towards the sound booth.
2) Police stationed at the entrances/exits so attendees KNOW there's police there and know where to find them.
3) More IRT patrolling the crowd, pushing through with flashlights and stuff. This is a staple at big events. IRT doesn't need to be just in the front or on stage. They need to patrol the crowd.
4) This might be silly, but K9 sniffing dog patrolling the line. They might not be able to "catch" anything because of con funk, but hey, if someone were to partake in consumption of anything illegal, I'm sure seeing a police officer walk around with a dog might deter them from bringing it into main programming.

Small but practical steps that will still satisfy ALL attendees, not cause the line to move slower than it already does, keep people safe, and have a fun time.

Also, promotion of safe dancing habits. I don't know how many people here actually attend EDM events outside of cons, but Dancesafe is a great community and even having them in the back (near Xavier and his glow sales) would be a positive change to the dances.

https://www.facebook.../like.dancesafe
http://dancesafe.org

This post has been edited by DJ Jeffito: 09 December 2013 - 01:26 AM

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#219 User is offline   Allison 

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Posted 09 December 2013 - 01:48 AM

View PostDJ Jeffito, on 09 December 2013 - 01:24 AM, said:

....

I can't even...

Those three genres you mentioned were at Hardcore Synergy too. Guess what, there was even hardcore at Soap Bubble in 2013! Music does not define "rave" or what you may associate the negative connotations of what "rave" means.

I think people have a VERY misunderstood view of both Hardcore Synergy and Soap Bubble.


Again, it's not about what genres of music Soap Bubble plays, or what a rave is by definition. It's the fact that certain things happen that make people associate it with a rave and not a "dance" or a "party" as ACen staff would like to believe.

To clarify, my original point was intended to portray that sugar coating the things that happen at Soap Bubble and what the event has become isn't doing anyone any good.

Quote

I understand a big, scary, dark room might be fuel for "illegal activities" but I strongly don't believe that's the case. I recently came from another meeting regarding a different rave and the topic of bags came up. Someone said no bags of any kind, including small hand bags/small purses to which I disagreed with. I think backpacks, camelbaks, etc should not be allowed but small bags (small purses/handbags) should be ok. They're reasoning was "they could sneak in alcohol in small bags too!" I mean really? Honestly, should ACen start giving people patdowns now?


That's also a physical safety/terrorism threat, to which I would argue isn't as bad as some would like to believe. But I would agree with you on that bag policy. It would decrease illegal activity by a lot.

Quote

Yes, there are security concerns with ALL events. However, not trying to empathize with your conflicting side and just spewing assumptions of what the other side think/views of a dance that has history (a lot of people dedicated to make sure it runs well and safely, and people who promote all year round to make sure it's a fun event) is just ignorant.


I wasn't trying to assume you thought a particular thing about any sort of dance. I understand that there's minors who want to go to Soap Bubble. I also understand that ACen has to worry about con attendance, finances, making people, etc. But I also know that the safety of a minor and the liability factor aren't issues that can't be ignored simply because people want to have fun.

Quote

Yes, it's a large dance. Yes, it's hard to make sure "illegal activities" aren't taking place. Small steps:

1) Blue light stations, like down at UIC, where IRT are housed at on each corner of the room, even some back towards the sound booth.
2) Police stationed at the entrances/exits so attendees KNOW there's police there and know where to find them.
3) More IRT patrolling the crowd, pushing through with flashlights and stuff. This is a staple at big events. IRT doesn't need to be just in the front or on stage. They need to patrol the crowd.
4) This might be silly, but K9 sniffing dog patrolling the line. They might not be able to "catch" anything because of con funk, but hey, if someone were to partake in consumption of anything illegal, I'm sure seeing a police officer walk around with a dog might deter them from bringing it into main programming.

Small but practical steps that will still satisfy ALL attendees, not cause the line to move slower than it already does, keep people safe, and have a fun time.

Also, promotion of safe dancing habits. I don't know how many people here actually attend EDM events outside of cons, but Dancesafe is a great community and even having them in the back (near Xavier and his glow sales) would be a positive change to the dances.

https://www.facebook.../like.dancesafe
http://dancesafe.org


A lot of those solutions seem expensive and would require a lot of resources. How are they going to implement the "blue light" areas? How are they going to find more IRT staff? Are the local police willing to cooperate and if so, who would be paying them/be responsible for them? I think the K9 thing is a bit extreme, not to mention people have allergies and issues with animals. Plus, the K9/extra police would turn off a lot of adults, and I don't think the issue is to stop all crime/illegal activity at Soap Bubble, just minor-specific ones.

#220 User is offline   Purplegodess 

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Posted 09 December 2013 - 08:58 PM

This is a lot of back and forth based mostly on assumptions instead of facts or even experience. We already have many police officers stationed at each of the exits. We do not allow bags into the Soap Bubble. Last year the fire chief checked bags and kicked people out of line if they had bags. We will not be changing the badge coding system. It is currently coded to pull kids 12 and under out. We have many types of badges as it is, and it is not something we are considering changing. It is a shame that some people try their hardest to do illegal activities and give the event bad names, but we do what we can to weed them out. Cops roam the dance, IRT roams the dance, Fire Marshals Roam the dance. People doing illegal activities get arrested because that is the polices job. All of Rosemont PD is on the weekend of our event, and they are everywhere. Curfew laws are upheld when individuals breaking them are found, but if a minor has a parent staying in the Hyatt they are within their rights to be in the hotel spaces according to curfew law. Their parents are responsible for their actions and where they let them go. I get that many people are not a fan of dances, but many people are and these two groups are not going to agree. The reality of it is that dances are a part of the fandom. It's fine to state opinions but eventually these threads that keep getting closed turn into one side bullying the other side and vice versa to see who can scream their opinions the loudest. So to end this the badges arent changing, police and security presence will keep increasing, the dances are not being canceled, other events to appeal to people who don't like dances will be occurring,Someones always going to try and sneak something in, and we are always going to try our hardest to make sure it doesn't happen. I spend like all of 2 minutes at the dances each year, usually enough to go that the police officers who are out there all night and to check on the atmosphere. It's not my scene, hasn't ever really been, but I still respect that it is the highlight of the weekend for many people. We are a community, we may not always share the same opinions, but we better be decent to one another otherwise it goes against everything it means to try an make everyone feel included. My two cents
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#221 User is offline   Lelo 

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Posted 10 December 2013 - 07:39 AM

If someone could find a way for me to avoid mother nature next con that would be greaaaaaaaaat.

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#222 User is offline   rondo 

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Posted 10 December 2013 - 08:39 AM

View PostPurplegodess, on 09 December 2013 - 08:58 PM, said:

This is a lot of back and forth based mostly on assumptions instead of facts or even experience. We already have many police officers stationed at each of the exits. We do not allow bags into the Soap Bubble. Last year the fire chief checked bags and kicked people out of line if they had bags. We will not be changing the badge coding system. It is currently coded to pull kids 12 and under out. We have many types of badges as it is, and it is not something we are considering changing. It is a shame that some people try their hardest to do illegal activities and give the event bad names, but we do what we can to weed them out. Cops roam the dance, IRT roams the dance, Fire Marshals Roam the dance. People doing illegal activities get arrested because that is the polices job. All of Rosemont PD is on the weekend of our event, and they are everywhere. Curfew laws are upheld when individuals breaking them are found, but if a minor has a parent staying in the Hyatt they are within their rights to be in the hotel spaces according to curfew law. Their parents are responsible for their actions and where they let them go. I get that many people are not a fan of dances, but many people are and these two groups are not going to agree. The reality of it is that dances are a part of the fandom. It's fine to state opinions but eventually these threads that keep getting closed turn into one side bullying the other side and vice versa to see who can scream their opinions the loudest. So to end this the badges arent changing, police and security presence will keep increasing, the dances are not being canceled, other events to appeal to people who don't like dances will be occurring,Someones always going to try and sneak something in, and we are always going to try our hardest to make sure it doesn't happen. I spend like all of 2 minutes at the dances each year, usually enough to go that the police officers who are out there all night and to check on the atmosphere. It's not my scene, hasn't ever really been, but I still respect that it is the highlight of the weekend for many people. We are a community, we may not always share the same opinions, but we better be decent to one another otherwise it goes against everything it means to try an make everyone feel included. My two cents


Well, that pretty much answers it..but on a side note, I don't think the term "bullying" applies here. I'd rather not see it watered down and applied to anytime there is a heated argument between individuals/groups. This is more like bickering in the name of attempted constructive criticism.

What basically can be taken from all of the dance/rave/social gathering discussion that has gone on so far is that the con is assumed to have taken note of whatever criticisms (this being a gripe thread) has been aired and will do what they feel is necessary to keep things running as smooth as possible. Regardless, the events will go on as long as they see fit from what has been said.

It may be helpful if those in moderation or those representing the con can answer gripes concisely, referencing direct posts from others. The general populace probably shouldn't be involved in answering said gripes and leave it to the con to address.

It is better to have the con take note of gripes and honestly see if they apply, offer applicable counters to gripes, and seek additional responses that do not rehash things already brought up.

Or have individual areas have their own feedback/gripe threads (some of which do, not all) and let staff of said expertise handle them. Or have the general gripe suggestions be sent via PM or anon some other means and then just have a thread where mods/staff post answers to gripes instead.

I feel I have to say that all of the above isn't some attack on someone or someone's power. It's just suggestions/discussion.

This post has been edited by rondo: 10 December 2013 - 02:31 PM


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Posted 10 December 2013 - 12:20 PM

View Postrondo, on 10 December 2013 - 08:39 AM, said:

Well, that pretty much answers it..but on a side note, I don't think the term "bullying" applies here. I'd rather not see it watered down and applied to anytime there is a heated argument between individuals/groups. This is more like bickering in the name of attempted constructive criticism.

What basically can be taken from all of the dance/rave/social gathering discussion that has gone on so far is that the con is assumed to have taken note of whatever criticisms (this being a gripe thread) has been aired and will do what they feel is necessary to keep things running as smooth as possible. Regardless, the events will go on as long as they see fit from what has been said.

It may be helpful if those in moderation or those representing the con can answer gripes concisely, referencing direct posts from others. The general populace probably shouldn't be involved in answering said gripes and leave it to the con to address.

It is better to have the con take note of gripes and honestly see if they apply, offer applicable counters to gripes, and seek additional responses that do not rehash things already brought up.

Or have individual areas have their own feedback/gripe threads (some of which do, not all) and let staff of said expertise handle them. Or have the general gripe suggestions be sent via PM or anon some other means and then just have a thread where mods/staff post answers to gripes instead.

Said, I feel I have to say that all of the above isn't some attack on someone or someone's power. It's just suggestions/discussion.



^ +1
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Posted 10 December 2013 - 04:16 PM

View Postrondo, on 10 December 2013 - 08:39 AM, said:

Well, that pretty much answers it..but on a side note, I don't think the term "bullying" applies here. I'd rather not see it watered down and applied to anytime there is a heated argument between individuals/groups. This is more like bickering in the name of attempted constructive criticism.

What basically can be taken from all of the dance/rave/social gathering discussion that has gone on so far is that the con is assumed to have taken note of whatever criticisms (this being a gripe thread) has been aired and will do what they feel is necessary to keep things running as smooth as possible. Regardless, the events will go on as long as they see fit from what has been said.

It may be helpful if those in moderation or those representing the con can answer gripes concisely, referencing direct posts from others. The general populace probably shouldn't be involved in answering said gripes and leave it to the con to address.

It is better to have the con take note of gripes and honestly see if they apply, offer applicable counters to gripes, and seek additional responses that do not rehash things already brought up.

Or have individual areas have their own feedback/gripe threads (some of which do, not all) and let staff of said expertise handle them. Or have the general gripe suggestions be sent via PM or anon some other means and then just have a thread where mods/staff post answers to gripes instead.

I feel I have to say that all of the above isn't some attack on someone or someone's power. It's just suggestions/discussion.


You're actually quite right, rondo. That's essentially the way the forums are handled right now, but in the case of this thread (and the subject matter within it), it's better to have it go to the departments in question.

Thus, folks, if there be gripes about something within a department's field (Exhibit Space, IRT, Main Programming, etc.), take it to their respective subforums going forward. That way the issues will be more easily and swiftly handled by those authorized to do so. ^^
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