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North Korea Let's discuss...

#1 User is offline   rondo 

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 08:32 AM

So here we have North Korea, scourge to many..friends to few.

Been alot of bluster as of late. Then today you have them declaring that Tokyo is target #1 if it is further provoked.


What do you think?

This post has been edited by rondo: 12 April 2013 - 08:43 AM


#2 User is offline   JujuFox 

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 09:09 AM

I keep typing up stuff and then deleting it because I really don't know what his endgame is, and that's the big problem here. No one knows what his endgame is. We don't know how stupid this Kim Jong Un is, and although he is acting much like his predecessors he is not them. He has to prove himself, prove his leadership abilities, prove his manhood I don't know. Something stupid like that.

Someone else put it more eloquently...

Quote

Joel Wit, visiting fellow at the US-Korea Institute at Johns Hopkins University, said that from the North Korean perspective, Kim Jong Un and his lieutenants "aren't crazy" and are falling back on a tried-and-true strategy.

Yet Snyder said Kim Jong Un's standing as a new, untested ruler is "the real wild-card factor that makes this different.""They're a very small country dealing with much more powerful countries, and they can't show any weakness. For them, the best defense is a good offense," he said.

The 30-year-old appears to be modeling himself on his grandfather, Kim Il Sung, who is more revered inside the country than the recently departed Kim Jong Il, he said.

"But you have to remember that even though Kim Il Sung came into power in his 30s, the first thing he did was start a war with South Korea," Snyder said.


I don't think the wold is scared of NK, but the world is scared of what a war started by NK can turn into. This war would be even more divisive than what we've been experiencing in the past few wars, and potentially more devastating if it escalated to nuclear war. We'd be finding out about all the secret nuclear warheads countries have that said they didn't. Who do you think is going to support NK? Iran? China? Russia? Who is going to take what side, and when? Will we wait until attacked like in WW2? I'm no conspiracy theorist, but it doesn't take much to see where a single strike by NK can lead us.

The real question, again, is what Kim Jong Un is really going to do? If he's smart he'll quit the temper tantrum and back off like his daddy did. If he's stupid he'll start WW3.


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#3 User is offline   Whodigiya 

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 09:14 AM

If they were to fight a war they'd probably have enough food to last a week, assuming that China doesn't help them out. They also really don't have an air force so most of their attacks are going to use those intricate underground tunnels they built. They have a small navy, but their subs are diesel electric so we'd pick them off pretty quick. Right now, China is trying to reel them in, because if they do go buck wild it won't be very good for them. Their equipment is very old, they are very poor, and they're not really built for a lasting conflict. It doesn't help that, as you said, they don't have many friends.

That said, they COULD attack Japan and it would not end well for them. My coworker told me this conspiracy theory that is going around (that neither of us take seriously) that states that Kim Jong Un may be rattling his sabre in the hopes that someone DOES take action and takes out the military, which is the REAL controlling agency in North Korea. There's been several coups and assassination attempts against him so he might be the Itachi North Korea needs. And if you believe that then I suppose anything is possible. I think WWIII is a bit of hyperbole, because all the big power countries know enough not to join up with a group of seeming crazies. Desert Storm was touted as being the next WWIII at the time and we can where that got Iraq. Crazy or not, you really can't trust a dictator that starves and kills his people.

This is pretty interesting: http://www.mandatory...?ncid=webmail28

Listen to Kerry North Korea: http://www.huffingto...26pLid%3D297360

This post has been edited by Whodigiya: 12 April 2013 - 09:18 AM

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 09:58 AM

a

View PostJujuFox, on 12 April 2013 - 09:09 AM, said:

I keep typing up stuff and then deleting it because I really don't know what his endgame is, and that's the big problem here. No one knows what his endgame is. We don't know how stupid this Kim Jong Un is, and although he is acting much like his predecessors he is not them. He has to prove himself, prove his leadership abilities, prove his manhood I don't know. Something stupid like that.

Someone else put it more eloquently...


I don't think the wold is scared of NK, but the world is scared of what a war started by NK can turn into. This war would be even more divisive than what we've been experiencing in the past few wars, and potentially more devastating if it escalated to nuclear war. We'd be finding out about all the secret nuclear warheads countries have that said they didn't. Who do you think is going to support NK? Iran? China? Russia? Who is going to take what side, and when? Will we wait until attacked like in WW2? I'm no conspiracy theorist, but it doesn't take much to see where a single strike by NK can lead us.

The real question, again, is what Kim Jong Un is really going to do? If he's smart he'll quit the temper tantrum and back off like his daddy did. If he's stupid he'll start WW3.


North Korea always suffered an inferiority complex. This is them acting just bratty then usual. (let's be honest, N Korea isn't too far off from America in terms of not paying attention to the important manners. Korea...4th largest military. Yet a massive food shortage. Suffering...deluded...yet suffering people. America. Largest military. Economic problems out the wazoo. (largest military because we spend WAY too much into it. No country comes close. We have our own inferiority complex)

Anywho, i severely doubt any major war will happen. Russia is no ally of N. korea. Iran just has "the hate U.S." Feeling N Korea has. China is the only ally N. korea openly has. And China isn't exactly endorsing them for these actions. What I suspect is going to happen is, the mom (aka china) step in and chastise her son (n korea). It's bad for business.

Btw juju America entered the wars being provoked, but only after the wars have begun. WW1 was the Lusitania. 2 was pearl harbor. (well into the war...however, we were secretly arming and assisting the "good guys")
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#5 User is offline   JujuFox 

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 10:28 AM

View PostXenoBlade, on 12 April 2013 - 09:58 AM, said:

a
North Korea always suffered an inferiority complex. This is them acting just bratty then usual. (let's be honest, N Korea isn't too far off from America in terms of not paying attention to the important manners. Korea...4th largest military. Yet a massive food shortage. Suffering...deluded...yet suffering people. America. Largest military. Economic problems out the wazoo. (largest military because we spend WAY too much into it. No country comes close. We have our own inferiority complex)

Anywho, i severely doubt any major war will happen. Russia is no ally of N. korea. Iran just has "the hate U.S." Feeling N Korea has. China is the only ally N. korea openly has. And China isn't exactly endorsing them for these actions. What I suspect is going to happen is, the mom (aka china) step in and chastise her son (n korea). It's bad for business.

Perhaps you are not aware of what Russia has been up to... http://www.washingto...rs-for-ukraine/ This is an article dated today.

Although as recently as this week Russia and China have both been telling NK to back the hell off. That still doesn't mean they wouldn't ally themselves with each other in war times.

Also, why is SK asking specifically for China and Russia to talk with NK and calm it down? http://www.huffingto..._n_3050728.html

View PostXenoBlade, on 12 April 2013 - 09:58 AM, said:

Btw juju America entered the wars being provoked, but only after the wars have begun. WW1 was the Lusitania. 2 was pearl harbor. (well into the war...however, we were secretly arming and assisting the "good guys")

I know. That's why I mentioned it. Even the Canadians got into fighting in WW2 before us. We didn't officially get involved in the fighting until we were attacked.


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#6 User is offline   Whodigiya 

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 10:34 AM

I think an EMP is the best North Korea could do. It would screw us pretty hard, but I believe we'd pull through.

I really would not compare North Korea with the USA in economic, military, or much of anything actually. The USA tends to be the centerpiece of many of the world's "important matters" (heck, there was talk the new Pope could have been American--except not, I mean c'mon guys). We have economic problems, yes, but typically our economy is a reflection of the world economy. Everyone has it pretty bad right now and the fact our gas prices have STILL stayed lower than many developed nations worldwide is a testament to our ability to just push on. Our military serves other functions as well, a lot of some of our best research comes from it (like this thing called the internet). As to whether or not the USA has an inferiority complex... I don't agree with that. North Korea has China to slap it on the wrist. All anyone can do to the USA is advise otherwise. We're fully capable of making our own mistakes AND feeding ourselves.

North Korea could try to cause a ruckus. A lot of people would continue to have employment, I know that much.
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#7 User is offline   Stkbayfield 

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 11:11 AM

My feelings on the matter is that NK can only swing their weight about as long as China is their ally and more and more each year China is becoming more alienated by their threats and testing. Eventually China will be the ones to do what the UN and US never could and get NK to shut up and play nice.

We should just treat Kim like a baby having a temper tantrum and ignore him until then.

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 11:41 AM

One of my friends recently came back from teaching in Seoul,SK, He said he knew something wrong was happening so that is why he came back and isn't planning on going back and teaching there any longer. But like you guys say NK is just throwing a fit.
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#9 User is offline   XenoBlade 

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 12:14 PM

e

View PostWhodigiya, on 12 April 2013 - 10:34 AM, said:

I think an EMP is the best North Korea could do. It would screw us pretty hard, but I believe we'd pull through.

I really would not compare North Korea with the USA in economic, military, or much of anything actually. The USA tends to be the centerpiece of many of the world's "important matters" (heck, there was talk the new Pope could have been American--except not, I mean c'mon guys). We have economic problems, yes, but typically our economy is a reflection of the world economy. Everyone has it pretty bad right now and the fact our gas prices have STILL stayed lower than many developed nations worldwide is a testament to our ability to just push on. Our military serves other functions as well, a lot of some of our best research comes from it (like this thing called the internet). As to whether or not the USA has an inferiority complex... I don't agree with that. North Korea has China to slap it on the wrist. All anyone can do to the USA is advise otherwise. We're fully capable of making our own mistakes AND feeding ourselves.

North Korea could try to cause a ruckus. A lot of people would continue to have employment, I know that much.


@juju that first article screams republican bias, so Im taking the opinions with a grain of salt, but Russia eyeing Ukraine isn't exactly new news. Also, im not saying they won't partner up for wars, but N korea is not an open ally with Russia. Just China.

@who
I have to disagree with you. Lol The U.S. has been suffering from feeling inferior for a long time now. You aren't well endowed? Better compensate. While N. korea doesn't compare, you cannot deny that both countries suffer from inferiority issues. And in this, China is the one the world centers around. They can just crush anyone economically. Cleaner and much more devastating then war. Being economically destroyed kick started WW2. Don't get me wrong, the US is huge, but China just is the center of the world. That's just life. Ill reply more at home if I forgot something. (i know I did) love debating.
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#10 User is offline   Whodigiya 

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 12:57 PM

Yeah, you're probably right. We're still playing catch-up in education and science thanks to the political atmosphere here. Our per capita beats the heck out of China, but that's because they have so many people to account for. We're pretty good with our standard of living, military, and medical facilities (36 out of 190 isn't bad on the World Health Ranks).

I agree that North Korea only has China really backing them up. I don't think Russia really wants that noise right now.
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#11 User is offline   Level-5 

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 04:06 PM

From what I gathered NK is going to shoot at Japan, USA, SK, and parts of areas near China.

So...China isn't really their ally per say.

Personally? I'm not worried about a WWIII.

This post has been edited by Level-5: 12 April 2013 - 04:07 PM


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Posted 12 April 2013 - 06:30 PM

I think NK is just throwing a huge tantrum. Itsl ike birds fluffing their feathers to look bigger.
I mean, kudos to Korea for their music and art and culture
But their government? Seriously? Its pathetic.
Maybe its just all a big bluff. I seriously don't wanna be trapped in the middle of a huge fit.
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#13 User is offline   XenoBlade 

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 08:13 PM

To continue Who, I wasn't saying we are destitute and sad like N. Korea, but we just have some similiarites when it comes to us needed to show our power. (And we just do not prioritize the important stuff sadly) We can definitely take care of ourself, no doubt. Just saying that we DO have a sort of inferiority complex to other powers.

Also Level-5, China is their ally for sure. Without China, North Korea would pretty much fade from existence. That is why when China says stop, N. Korea will pretty much listen.

It's almost like how Israel and North America is. Israel is kinda free to do all willy nilly because they have us to back them up. (Cept the Koreans are a lil more crazy...and well. A lot more crazy)
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Posted 12 April 2013 - 09:53 PM

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 11:17 PM

View PostXenoBlade, on 12 April 2013 - 08:13 PM, said:

Also Level-5, China is their ally for sure.


China is also tired of their crap. It would be political suicide to back a nation with such a horrendous human rights record.
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Posted 13 April 2013 - 12:38 AM

Last I heard, this was just a play to demand further assistance in the future (source here). If they really did launch an attack, the backlash would effectively lead to an end of Kim Jong Un's regime. I doubt highly China is going to support North Korea in a war that would send nukes into their own front yard.

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 02:23 AM

If China wants a war, it will be on their own terms (with Japan over the Senkakus, with Taiwan). The Norks starting a war that can only end badly is not in China's best interests.

Before people get to intent saying that Pyongyang won't move if Beijing disapproves--both Mao and Stalin told Kim Il-Sung not to invade South Korea in 1950. He ignored them. Never underestimate the insanity and stupidity of the Kim family.

I wouldn't say the US has an inferiority complex, aside from this strange compulsion we have to blame ourselves for other people's problems. If you want the world's biggest inferiority complex, that would be Russia, who has felt inferior to everyone since about forever. It's why Putin feels the need to post pictures of himself wrestling bears half-naked--he needs to assure the Russian people that he's a Tough Guy. (Or Iron Man...which translates into Russian as "Stalin.")

We spend more on defense than most other nations per capita (not in total dollars; that would be China) mainly because we love advanced tech, which is expensive. We're sticking frickin' lasers on our ships and field a few wings of stealth fighters while the rest of the world plays catchup. Nations like North Korea need thousands of men to do something; we have one soldier who asks for an airstrike and the pilot asks which nostril of the enemy the GPS-guided bomb it needs to go into.

I'd rather have us spend a lot on tech than waste human lives.

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#18 User is offline   Whodigiya 

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 05:57 AM

Israel does whatever they want, because they're situated next to people who hate them. They can't afford to be civil or they'll get steamrolled. Remember when Israel did us a favor and warned us that if they attacked Iran they wouldn't warn us (http://usatoday30.us...-usa/57218614/1)? Remember how they shot at those humanitarian aid boats (http://www.nytimes.c...01flotilla.html)? They talk AND they walk. I'm not saying it's right, but they can't afford to sit back and be nice about things. But that's a bit off topic...

I still don't think "inferiority complex" is the word. Our military provides fantastic research opportunities that don't just equate to wheels of death. I think you're confusing what you perceive an "inferiority complex" with our seeming desire to defend the world from *insert perceived evil here*. A guy who buys a lot of guns and works out all the time might suffer low self-esteem. He might feel inferior to everyone around him even though he seems to be doing well. That or he could be fashioning himself into The Punisher. Other "powers" out there pressure us into not getting involved while at the same time frowning on us when we don't get involved. We can't just not do anything without making everyone mad. I think it's a game of what you can do to make fewer people mad.

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 08:59 AM

I still retain we have an inferiority complex, (just because we use our military research for other things, doesn't mean the bulk of the ridiculous spending isn't feeding in to it. Lol) and I agree sent, Russia has a tie with North Korea with the inferiority. But I still say we are nursing since we are not the center of the world as much anymore. I know what inferiority complex means. Lol
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Posted 13 April 2013 - 09:05 AM

This stupid phone is messing up my longer responses. I have more to add bout Israel, and more to defend my views, but alas. Ill do it later.
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Posted 13 April 2013 - 09:23 AM

I wouldn't stray from the topic talking about Israel. If you would like to discuss Israel's aggressive policies and their most recent actions then it may be best to start another thread. That's a whole 'nother beast right there.

I have no doubt that you know what inferiority complex means, I just don't think that's what it is. As I hinted in my last post, you could say things to lead either way.

If what the spy said in the link I posted earlier isn't just propaganda and lies then maybe Kim IS doing this because he's losing control of his military. In that case then all this grandstanding could be his way of showing that he's strong and unafraid--even if that would mean he's weak and scared. I'd be too if my people tried to kill me.

To keep the focus on North Korea and their possible threat against Japan, I don't think they'll action that objective. If they did Japan would fire right back and it would be a lot worse for North Korea. They've got plenty of Patriot Missiles to handle that business.
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Posted 13 April 2013 - 10:57 AM

I just heard this morning that the thought now is that this is all a ploy by NK to get more money/aid. It's rumored that NK fully intends on performing the missile test they've been saying they would, just so they can turn around and say "Okay, we won't do that again if you agree to help us out". I'll try to locate the story in print and post it when I find it. Whether this is true or not, I can't say but it doesn't sound too far fetched.
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Posted 13 April 2013 - 12:08 PM

View PostCharlotteStar, on 13 April 2013 - 10:57 AM, said:

I just heard this morning that the thought now is that this is all a ploy by NK to get more money/aid. It's rumored that NK fully intends on performing the missile test they've been saying they would, just so they can turn around and say "Okay, we won't do that again if you agree to help us out". I'll try to locate the story in print and post it when I find it. Whether this is true or not, I can't say but it doesn't sound too far fetched.


That's pretty reasonable actually and theories have been going around about that for a while now (the extreme case being that conspiracy theory I posted earlier).

Read this: http://www.nytimes.c...tions.html?_r=0
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Posted 13 April 2013 - 01:33 PM

I agree with that, but after the Norks closed the Kaesong industrial area, that suggests they're a bit more serious this time. It certainly could be a ploy for attention and foreign aid (not to mention embarrassing the new South Korean PM, Japan's new PM, and Obama all at once if they knuckle under), but it also could be the feeling of "use it or lose it."

China is not nearly as powerful as some (or they) think. Their military is rapidly becoming world-class, but their economy is rickety, their environment is appalling, and they could be running into some real demographic problems in the near future. It's a house built on sand. They're also facing some very real rivals in the Pacific Rim--Russia, Taiwan, Japan, and especially India. Japan and India have quietly been building rather large militaries: if you measure power projection by aircraft carriers, the Indians have one and are putting the finishing touches on a second; Japan has two and is working on a third. China barely has one. And of course that doesn't include the US.

Not to say that China isn't a regional powerhouse and an economic giant--they are. They're just not the center of the earth.

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#25 User is offline   Whodigiya 

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 02:03 PM

Measuring power through naval capabilities is probably one of the best ways to determine how capable a fighting force is nowadays. That and the per capita.
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