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Romney or Obama 2012!

#91 User is offline   kahad 

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 10:10 PM

View Postsentinel28a, on 06 September 2012 - 09:07 PM, said:

Given that the Democrats' platform includes nearly $700 million in new spending...I'm not confident of their committment to budget reduction. Especially since a good portion of that is apparently on a new stimulus.

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First thing I thought of when I heard about this:

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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#92 User is offline   The Fujoshi 

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 10:31 PM

View Postkahad, on 06 September 2012 - 10:10 PM, said:

First thing I thought of when I heard about this:

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results


But that's what people are known for! Look at history in this country or any country.

Why are we still doing the same things like we did back in 1920?
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#93 User is offline   YoungBirdcall 

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 10:16 AM

View Postminecraftsmurf, on 04 September 2012 - 05:27 PM, said:

Lol, the top 10% of the 2/3’s of Americans are actually productive individuals and thereby pay taxes, pay roughly 58% of the entire nations total tax burden… In Cali the top 1% of the 2/3’s pays 60% of the entire states tax burden…

That is more than two fair shares. That 17% some millionaire pays is far more than an average person’s 30%... If ones 30% is nowhere near that 17% in actual real money not percentage… they have absolutely no right to cry, moan, and complain… it’s not their money in the first place.

I types 16 pages… non-double spaced size 10 Arial ranting about motiveless sheeple more concerned about when the next episode of Tuff girls, or Jerry Springer comes out or the next iphone than they are about their growing $10,000 debt. Or 23 year old college graduates with arts degree feeling entitled to a $50,000 a year job with absolutely no prior work experience… not even a part time job during HS summer. Etc. But hey… I guess it all boils down that not enough people are paying for everything they feel entitled to… free healthcare… free education… the feeling of safety to go to the store… etc. Horrible rich people only paying a few million dollars a year when they could pay more!! They are only paying like 15% of their total income while I’m stuck paying 30%... Horrible people!! If I was rich I would help out everyone I would pay like 50% of my income in taxes!

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Edit: We are all greedy (stingy) and jealous in one way or another. However, there are two types of people.
1) People who are so jealous of the successful they decide to point their finger at them and blame them for their problems... their incompetence... their failure.
2) People are are jealous of the successful... and strive to be successful themselves... actually trying... failing and trying again... pushing forward.

I am the type 2 person. Therefore, I follow conservative ideals. I am not a victim. I do not think that others should pay for me regarding anything... I do not want to be a dependent person. I enjoy working. I enjoy striving for a better future... that is my American dream. Thus far I am strolling along quite well.


So, because the 17% that wealthy people pay, on average, amounts to more total dollars than the 30% that us normies pay, that's somehow unfair to the rich people? That argument makes zero logical sense. Our tax code is based upon percentage of earned income, not total dollar amounts. And for the record, many super wealthy individuals and corporations pay zero tax dollars annually. Why do you think Mitt Romney released only 2 years of his tax returns, despite the fact that most general election candidates release between four and ten years of tax returns (and some release many more than 10 years' worth)? "since 1980, only two general election candidates have revealed just two years of tax returns. One was Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., in 2008 and the other is Mitt Romney (at least so far during this campaign)." http://ow.ly/dxTuH

Furthermore, your earlier remark that Romney is skilled in debt management and job creation is laughable.

"A man makes a $250 million fortune loading up companies with debt and then extracting million-dollar fees from those same companies, in exchange for the generous service of telling them who needs to be fired in order to finance the debt payments he saddled them with in the first place. That same man then runs for president riding an image of children roasting on flames of debt, choosing as his running mate perhaps the only politician in America more pompous and self-righteous on the subject of the evils of borrowed money than the candidate himself. If Romney pulls off this whopper, you'll have to tip your hat to him: No one in history has ever successfully run for president riding this big of a lie. It's almost enough to make you think he really is qualified for the White House." http://ow.ly/dxSMH
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#94 User is offline   YoungBirdcall 

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 01:08 PM

Also, this:

Posted Image
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#95 User is offline   linlindesu 

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 01:38 PM

I'm not sure how many of you have been tuned into the DNC this year but the words that crazy bat Ann Coulter spat out regarding Sandra Fluke made me hate the GOP social values in a way even PayPay couldn't.
And to those of you saying the economy is the only thing that really matters in this election , you must be very blessed.
and by blessed I mean hetrosexual males.
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#96 User is offline   YoungBirdcall 

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 02:31 PM

View Postlinlindesu, on 07 September 2012 - 01:38 PM, said:

I'm not sure how many of you have been tuned into the DNC this year but the words that crazy bat Ann Coulter spat out regarding Sandra Fluke made me hate the GOP social values in a way even PayPay couldn't.
And to those of you saying the economy is the only thing that really matters in this election , you must be very blessed.
and by blessed I mean heterosexual males
.


THIS.
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#97 User is offline   rondo 

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 02:59 PM

When somebody mentions Ann Coulter, I instantly think of that Boondocks episode.

Posted Image

#98 User is offline   YoungBirdcall 

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 04:16 PM

View Postrondo, on 07 September 2012 - 02:59 PM, said:

When somebody mentions Ann Coulter, I instantly think of that Boondocks episode.

Posted Image


Too funny! The Boondocks is a quality program.
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#99 User is offline   XenoBlade 

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 07:32 PM

View Postlinlindesu, on 07 September 2012 - 01:38 PM, said:

I'm not sure how many of you have been tuned into the DNC this year but the words that crazy bat Ann Coulter spat out regarding Sandra Fluke made me hate the GOP social values in a way even PayPay couldn't.
And to those of you saying the economy is the only thing that really matters in this election , you must be very blessed.
and by blessed I mean hetrosexual males.


If you were replying to what I said, I never said the other issues weren't important, just that the economy is much more important at this time since it affects everyone.

Btw Boondocks is seriously a great show.
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#100 User is offline   JujuFox 

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 08:26 PM

Wow this thread really went down the toilet with misinformation and straight up bashing.

I was just in a debate on facebook and my friend, a tax professional, helped clear up a few things...

Quote

Do you have any idea what your tax bracket is? I can't count the number of people I've heard say "the rich only pay 15% and I pay 30%" -- really? To be in the 28% income tax bracket you have to first be earning $139,531 to 212,300 if you are single, and $174,401 to 379,150 a year if you are married filing jointly. If you want to compare the tax rates you actually pay to what a Mitt Romney or Warren Buffett or Barack Obama pays then you have to determine your effective tax rate. Take your adjusted gross income from line 37 of your tax return - then look up line 61 (your total tax due). Divide line 61 by line 37 and you have your effective tax rate; compare that to Romney's 15%, or Buffett's 15%, or Obama's 20% effective tax rate (all three are in higher tax brackets than that). Plus, realized capital gains (what you make on an asset that you sell for more than you paid) and dividends are taxed differently from wages - to encourage people to sell and realize the gains rather than sitting on gains (100% of $0 is still $0 to the IRS - if no one sells no taxes are due) and dividends are corporate profits being distributed to the shareholders (owners of the company) that were already taxed at the corporate level once - and if they don't distribute the dividend, then the IRS again would get $0 for the dividend income from Romney, Buffett, and Obama.


I just pulled out my tax return, did the math, and found I paid 12%. Divide line 61 by line 37 for your effective tax rate. You've been fed a lie.
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Posted 07 September 2012 - 09:14 PM

I seriously think we should vote a Banzai tree into the White House. We're already batpoop insane as a nation, so let's just put that punctuation mark on this long running sentence and prove it to the world.
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#102 User is offline   kahad 

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 09:58 PM

View PostYoungBirdcall, on 07 September 2012 - 10:16 AM, said:

Why do you think Mitt Romney released only 2 years of his tax returns, despite the fact that most general election candidates release between four and ten years of tax returns (and some release many more than 10 years' worth)?

Most likely because he knows that even if he released more records, it would not make any difference. They just ask for more

View PostYoungBirdcall, on 07 September 2012 - 10:16 AM, said:

And for the record, many super wealthy individuals and corporations pay zero tax dollars annually.

This statement perfectly highlights on of the main reasons that I'll most likely never get behind the Democratic party. I don't totally argue with the Republican's platform (I'm more pro-smart spending as opposed to anti-tax, and I lean Libertarian in regards to gay marriage and abortion.) But the Democratic party seems to be totally overran with envy and paranoia in regards to anybody that makes lots of money.

Unless they are Democrats. In that case, it's perfectly fine.
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#103 User is offline   sentinel28a 

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 10:53 PM

View Postkahad, on 07 September 2012 - 09:58 PM, said:

Most likely because he knows that even if he released more records, it would not make any difference. They just ask for more


This statement perfectly highlights on of the main reasons that I'll most likely never get behind the Democratic party. I don't totally argue with the Republican's platform (I'm more pro-smart spending as opposed to anti-tax, and I lean Libertarian in regards to gay marriage and abortion.) But the Democratic party seems to be totally overran with envy and paranoia in regards to anybody that makes lots of money.

Unless they are Democrats. In that case, it's perfectly fine.


Agreed. Natalie Portman addressed the DNC last night, and I know that she's just destitute and living on welfare. Donald Sutherland thinks there needs to be a revolution in this country against the rich--which is ironic, because with a net worth of $40 million, he'd be first on the wall.

Nancy Pelosi blasts Romney for having offshore accounts, without mentioning that she does too--far more than Romney. Michael Moore wants us to stick it to the rich, as long as we spare his Central Park West condo. I can keep going.

Get real. Do women in this country seriously believe that they're going to be forced back into the kitchens? (Especially given that George W. Bush, that eeeevil conservative, had more minorities and women in his cabinet than any other President, including Barack Obama?)

Do African-Americans seriously believe they'll be returned to slavery (which would be ironic, considering Democrats fought so hard to keep them in chains)?

Do gays seriously believe that they'll all be shot if Romney becomes President? (Before you get worried about gay marriage, 39 states prohibit it. They're not all ruby red.)

If they do, then I'm wrong: the economy isn't the most pressing need. Education is, because clearly we teachers have failed to teach this thing called "using your damn brain."

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This post has been edited by sentinel28a: 07 September 2012 - 10:54 PM

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#104 User is offline   kahad 

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 11:09 PM

It's a pity that the Democratic party is like this. I am no where near as conservative as I was when I first registered to vote. I would seriously consider switching parties.
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#105 User is offline   XenoBlade 

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 12:13 AM

View Postkahad, on 07 September 2012 - 09:58 PM, said:

Most likely because he knows that even if he released more records, it would not make any difference. They just ask for more



That just sounds like a cheap way out. If he released the standard, yeah some people would complain, but he wouldn't need to show more. Some might argue he is standing his ground, but there is nothing that can be said louder about needing to hide something.


View Postsentinel28a, on 07 September 2012 - 10:53 PM, said:


Do African-Americans seriously believe they'll be returned to slavery (which would be ironic, considering Democrats fought so hard to keep them in chains)?

Ben Da Mad Irishman


If you are talking about slave era stuff, wouldn't those said Democrats actually be Republicans due to the party switch?
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#106 User is offline   minecraftsmurf 

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 12:21 AM

View PostYoungBirdcall, on 07 September 2012 - 10:16 AM, said:

So, because the 17% that wealthy people pay, on average, amounts to more total dollars than the 30% that us normies pay, that's somehow unfair to the rich people? That argument makes zero logical sense. Our tax code is based upon percentage of earned income, not total dollar amounts. And for the record, many super wealthy individuals and corporations pay zero tax dollars annually. Why do you think Mitt Romney released only 2 years of his tax returns, despite the fact that most general election candidates release between four and ten years of tax returns (and some release many more than 10 years' worth)? "since 1980, only two general election candidates have revealed just two years of tax returns. One was Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., in 2008 and the other is Mitt Romney (at least so far during this campaign)." http://ow.ly/dxTuH

Furthermore, your earlier remark that Romney is skilled in debt management and job creation is laughable.

"A man makes a $250 million fortune loading up companies with debt and then extracting million-dollar fees from those same companies, in exchange for the generous service of telling them who needs to be fired in order to finance the debt payments he saddled them with in the first place. That same man then runs for president riding an image of children roasting on flames of debt, choosing as his running mate perhaps the only politician in America more pompous and self-righteous on the subject of the evils of borrowed money than the candidate himself. If Romney pulls off this whopper, you'll have to tip your hat to him: No one in history has ever successfully run for president riding this big of a lie. It's almost enough to make you think he really is qualified for the White House." http://ow.ly/dxSMH


It’s so amusing to me. All I hear out of elitist liberals is that the rich do not pay enough in taxes… that the evil corporations that supply thousands of jobs do not pay enough in taxes. When, in reality, they pay nearly 60% of the entire nation’s tax burden. How much is enough for the top 10% of the 2/3’s of Americans who work? How much would satisfy you… 75%... 90%... or how about 100% so the ‘emerging’ class who already lacks a work ethic won’t need one at all?

Do you really think that this world is fair? Do you really think that everyone is equal… that everyone is ‘entitled’ to succeed? I hate to be the evil one to break a childhood fantasy… but this world is still a dog eat dog world dominated by a manipulative species of mammal that is still evolving… that still obeys natures laws including natural selection.

The ‘emerging’ generation can barely handle general level classes in high school where 40% of your grade is based on attendance... but hey… it’s not their fault right? Blame video games, the schools, the teachers, television, and of course, the evil corporations… we can’t let individuals take reasonability for their individual decisions and ignorant (un taught) ideals. They are just victims right? This generation feels that they are ‘entitled’ to a satisfactory lifestyle where all of their needs and their general ‘wants’ are supplied.

Edit: Actually, I think that "Hospin -- I'll Mind of Hospin 5" may do a better job of explaining the ignorance this'emerging' generation expresses in a language they can relate with. Youtube it at your own risk. Requiring you to log in to view the content is more than enough of an explanation that the content may be 'offensive' to children.

This post has been edited by minecraftsmurf: 08 September 2012 - 12:34 AM


#107 User is offline   The Fujoshi 

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 11:37 AM

View Postlinlindesu, on 07 September 2012 - 01:38 PM, said:

I'm not sure how many of you have been tuned into the DNC this year but the words that crazy bat Ann Coulter spat out regarding Sandra Fluke made me hate the GOP social values in a way even PayPay couldn't.
And to those of you saying the economy is the only thing that really matters in this election , you must be very blessed.
and by blessed I mean hetrosexual males.


^ This.

I laughed too hard; I noticed outside of Xeno that most people saying this are straight males.
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Posted 09 September 2012 - 12:43 PM

I'm pleased as punch to see everyone calmly debating here and just want to make a friendly reminder to please keep it up! :]
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#109 User is offline   kahad 

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 02:47 PM

This has actually been one of the better political debate threads we've had. The '04 thread was nice too, but the forums was still small back then.

hopefully we can keep up the good work.
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#110 User is offline   YoungBirdcall 

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 12:14 AM

View Postkahad, on 07 September 2012 - 09:58 PM, said:

This statement perfectly highlights on of the main reasons that I'll most likely never get behind the Democratic party. I don't totally argue with the Republican's platform (I'm more pro-smart spending as opposed to anti-tax, and I lean Libertarian in regards to gay marriage and abortion.) But the Democratic party seems to be totally overran with envy and paranoia in regards to anybody that makes lots of money.

Unless they are Democrats. In that case, it's perfectly fine.


I don't know where you got the impression that I support Democratic-leaning corporations and individual members of the Democratic Party not having to pay taxes. I do not think that anyone or any organization should be permitted to pay zero tax dollars annually.

Just because the Democratic Party cares (or at the very least pretends to care) about people other than the wealthy (and the corporations that the wealthy own & operate) does not mean that Democrats are jealous of wealthy people.

The point you're apparently trying to make seems to amount to "All Democrats except for rich Democrats are jealous of the rich, and regular ol' Democrats don't hate on the rich Democrats."

That's goofy. How can Democrats be anti-rich and anti-corporations? Corporate profits are close to all-time highs.

And is it so strange to believe that someone could be wealthy and also care about people who aren't as fortunate (or, some of of you guys would prefer to say, aren't as "hard working")?

Also, for the record, plenty of poor people work hard. That is not the issue. I don't mean this with any disrespect to anyone, but I honestly feel like sometimes it's hard (or damn-near impossible) for a straight white male to understand how privileged he is in this world. It's ever harder for straight white rich males to recognize their privilege (and rich people in general). People who are rich - and the people who make excuses for the rich - think that working hard is the key to success in this country. But the rich have a social safety net that will catch them if they fall. They are born with chances that many poor people never get. They typically do not have to deal with violence and gang presence in their neighborhoods while they are growing up. They are not crammed into over-crowded, under-funded & under-staffed schools.

There are people who have never worked hard for a day in their life, yet they are wealthy. There are people who worked hard their entire adult lives, yet they are not wealthy.

"Chris Hayes, author of the new book Twilight of the Elites: America After Meritocracy, notes that when citizens of different countries are polled about their perception of how easy it is to start off poor and work their way up to wealth, "the U.S. is near or at the top in terms of people who say 'yes.' And yet it is also near the bottom in terms of actual social mobility." Sure, the Civil Rights movement, feminism, and equal opportunity laws have helped to remove many of the barriers to success -- but people at the top tend to stay at the top, from clique to clique, and generation after generation. "Those who climb up the ladder will always find a way to pull it up after them, or to selectively lower it down to allow their friends, allies, and kin to scramble up," Hayes writes.The powerful are liable to game systems (like school admissions processes) designed to reward merit; they'll also go to great lengths to maintain their bank accounts and their positions (consider, for instance, just about everyone involved in creating the subprime mortgage crisis). And despite the fact that we are all supposedly born with the same legal rights, the elite are rarely punished for their misdeeds, particularly compared to those lower down on the socioeconomic chain. "The idea that we are a meritocracy is a vast oversimplification, a self-serving and self-justifying one," says Hayes. "If you believe that the model is that those who are smartest and hardest working end up with the most power or the most lucrative jobs, then ... one conclusion to draw from that [is] that the people currently occupying those positions must be meritorious, which I think is an insidious myth."

Sociologist Stephen McNamee makes some similar points in his 2004 book The Meritocracy Myth, though he emphasizes the circumstances we are born into as a determining factor in where we'll end up. "The race to get ahead is a relay race in which we inherit a starting point from our parents that in itself creates huge inequalities of opportunity unrelated to the merit of discrete individuals, including, and especially, unequal access to educational opportunity," McNamee explains. Being born to wealthy, powerful, or well-credentialed parents doesn't just help to ensure an individual will have elite educational experiences; his childhood and college experiences in turn ensure that he will make important social connections and fit in culturally, multiplying his chances for unusual success."The SAT was supposed to level the playing field so that the Ivies, for example, were not just the provenance of the elite," Barron notes. But the game has become rigged in favor of the wealthy, who can afford to pay for years of test prep and college application tutoring for their children.As McNamee puts it: "If Americans believe that individuals 'get what they deserve' based on their merit (innate abilities, having the right attitude, working hard, playing by the rules), then distain for the unsuccessful is seen as warranted.""Merit hard liners downplay the effects of luck," says McNamee. "But the imperfections and ultimate uncertainty of both the stock market on Wall Street and the labor market on Main Street add an undeniable element of luck into the mix."

"Major structural changes in the U.S. economy such as de-industrialization, automation, and globalization have displaced workers quite independent of the merit of individuals," says McNamee. "The historical decline in self-employment and the concomitant rise and dominance of large oligarchic corporations (including chains and franchises) have created barriers of entry for starting and sustaining small businesses and sharply reduced the entrepreneurial path to mobility." Those at the top sometimes fail to understand how much their wealth and power are a function of their environment. "Often those who are privileged," writes McNamee, "at least compared to the very poor, do not recognize or acknowledge these advantages and often mistakenly attribute their 'success' to individual merit alone -- i.e. being born on third base having thought you hit a triple." Despite the fact that most Americans believe our country is still The Land of Opportunity, the greatest meritocracy in the world, the United States is actually a terrible place for fortune-seekers."

Need more convincing? New York Times political commentator David Brooks tries to disprove Hayes' points but actually ends up proving them.




The Republican Party looks out for the wealthy individuals in our society (and, by extension, the business and corporations that these individuals own & operate) first and foremost. That's just the facts. In the past 40 years or so, CEOs have gone from earning 20 times more than the average worker, to more than 230 times the average worker. However, our nation's tax rates are no longer accounting for this discrepancy.

G.W. Bush cut V.A. benefits. Barack Obama increased them. The recently-released G.O.P. budget cuts spending on veterans by eleven billion dollars. This budget is written by Paul Ryan. It repeals the repatriation tax on profits corporations earn overseas then bring back to the United States. It would double student loan insurance rates, from 3.4% to 6.8%. People who make less than $30,000 a year, i.e. poor people, will see their effective tax rates increase. And the worst part is, Ryan can't even say whether the Romney-Ryan Plan would balance the budget. Trickle-down economics does not work. Increasing the tax burden for poor people, while decreasing the tax burden for rich people (as the Romney-Ryan Plan aims to do) is not a way to make all of us richer, as we are told. Instead, it is simply an upward redistribution of income. - paraphrased from Cambridge professor of economics Ha-Joon Chang.


I'll close this diatribe with a quote from Lee Atwater, Republican consultant and former chair of the R.N.C. (Republican National Committee). For context, Mr. Atwater is answering a question in 1981, during his time as a member of the Reagan administration. The question concerns the Republican Party's so-called Southern Strategy, and Reagan's version of it:

"You start out in 1954 by saying, 'n-i-g-g-e-r, n-i-g-g-e-r, n-i-g-g-e-r.' By 1968 you can't say 'n-i-g-g-e-r' — that hurts you. Backfires. So you say stuff like forced busing, states' rights and all that stuff. You're getting so abstract now [that] you're talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you're talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is [that] blacks get hurt worse than whites. And subconsciously maybe that is part of it. I'm not saying that. But I'm saying that if it is getting that abstract, and that coded, that we are doing away with the racial problem one way or the other. You follow me — because obviously sitting around saying, "We want to cut this," is much more abstract than even the busing thing, and a hell of a lot more abstract than 'n-i-g-g-e-r, n-i-g-g-e-r'."

I am by no means saying that all Republicans feel this way, but it's worth noting that this man was a top Republican thinker, theorist, and political strategist.

I'm not even necessarily pro-Democrat at this point, but if you're not wealthy and you're still voting for a Republican candidate (with a few notable exceptions), then you're voting against your own self-interests. Democrats are basically the lesser of two evils. It's like this: "The U.S. two party system is basically split between corporatists that have absorbed an Evangelical rhetoric to get votes [Republicans], and corporate apologists that sometimes care about social issues [Democrats]."

This post has been edited by YoungBirdcall: 10 September 2012 - 01:20 PM

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#111 User is offline   kahad 

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 08:54 AM

And is it so strange to believe that someone could be wealthy and also care about people who aren't as fortunate.

I'm not saying that. I am saying that it is a little hypocritical to bash an economic system then get rich from the same system. It's ironic that people like Moore bash Capitalism so much, as it is the reason that they have so much money.

Also hypocritical to say that they are not part of the 1% when their net worth is in the millions.

Speaking of which, does Moore actually practice what he preaches? I tried to do a Google search for Moore charity donations and came up with nothing.
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Posted 10 September 2012 - 02:45 PM

http://www.salon.com...i_left_the_gop/
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Posted 10 September 2012 - 05:00 PM

@ YoungBirdcall You seem to like to do research!!! So take a little peak into the Heritage Foundation.

You can learn:
- The top 10% of earners pay 71% of the Federal Income taxes (after tax returns).
- The bottom 50% earns 13% of the total income... however, paid 2% of Federal Incomes taxes (after tax returns).
- Only 55% of American households pay Federal Income taxes (after Tax Returns).

I did not get a tax return in 2011. In fact, I had to pay more... (am no millionaire) however, I earn a fair wage for my education, dedication, risks, and giving it full effort.

I don't think that individuals who pay 0% income taxes have 0% right to claim that others should pay more.

On a silly note. We should put a 5$ tax every time someone says "fair share" of taxes! But than again, that would bankrupt the democratic party.

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 05:08 PM

View PostYoungBirdcall, on 10 September 2012 - 12:14 AM, said:

-snip-


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Posted 10 September 2012 - 06:01 PM

View PostYoungBirdcall, on 10 September 2012 - 02:45 PM, said:



:lol: :lol: :lol:

Salon is a hack website for liberals. You'll going to have to do a LOT better than that.
I've been there once. Obama could revoke the entire Constitution, and they would praise them for it. They are THAT addicted to the blue kool-aid.

This post has been edited by kahad: 10 September 2012 - 06:02 PM

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 06:20 PM

View PostYoungBirdcall, on 10 September 2012 - 12:14 AM, said:

"The U.S. two party system is basically split between corporatists that have absorbed an Evangelical rhetoric to get votes [Republicans], and corporate apologists that sometimes care about social issues [Democrats]."

The partisanship politics of this country is BS.
Well, every free country needs fervent opposing sides, right?
We can all agree, everybody sucks.
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Posted 10 September 2012 - 07:44 PM

View PostPrayer Police, on 10 September 2012 - 06:20 PM, said:

The partisanship politics of this country is BS.
Well, every free country needs fervent opposing sides, right?
We can all agree, everybody sucks.


That is indeed one thing we can all agree on, I think.

Look at what's happening in Chicago. The teachers' union--which usually break about 90% for Democrats, and likely will vote overwhelmingly for Obama--is in a staring contest with Rahm Emmanuel, Obama's former chief of staff...who has just gotten a nod of support from Ryan.

Out here in Montana, we voted overwhelmingly for GW Bush in 2004 while electing--overwhelmingly--a Democrat governor, who, if not for term limits, would cruise to a third term this year...and Obama has a next to zero chance of winning Montana. Our Senate race is still fairly close, with both candidates accusing each other of helping "fat cats" and voting for Wall Street tax breaks. Seriously. Switch out the names and they're basically the same ad.

I think the American people are actually a lot closer in things than we think. I'm not entirely sure about our elected officials.

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#118 User is offline   The Fujoshi 

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 07:55 PM

View Postsentinel28a, on 10 September 2012 - 07:44 PM, said:



I think the American people are actually a lot closer in things than we think. I'm not entirely sure about our elected officials.

Ben Da Mad Irishman



Actually if you think about it, Rahm is going through a similar thing that Obama is. Daley ran forever and put Chicago in a really bad state and he has to clean up years worth of mess and million/billions of dollars from the acts of Daley and the previous Daley.

No matter how you look at it, the parking meters was a bad idea.

This post has been edited by The Fujoshi: 10 September 2012 - 07:56 PM

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 09:31 PM

View PostYoungBirdcall, on 10 September 2012 - 12:14 AM, said:

I don't know where you got the impression that I support Democratic-leaning corporations and individual members of the Democratic Party not having to pay taxes. I do not think that anyone or any organization should be permitted to pay zero tax dollars annually.

Just because the Democratic Party cares (or at the very least pretends to care) about people other than the wealthy (and the corporations that the wealthy own & operate) does not mean that Democrats are jealous of wealthy people.

The point you're apparently trying to make seems to amount to "All Democrats except for rich Democrats are jealous of the rich, and regular ol' Democrats don't hate on the rich Democrats."

That's goofy. How can Democrats be anti-rich and anti-corporations? Corporate profits are close to all-time highs.

And is it so strange to believe that someone could be wealthy and also care about people who aren't as fortunate (or, some of of you guys would prefer to say, aren't as "hard working")?

Also, for the record, plenty of poor people work hard. That is not the issue. I don't mean this with any disrespect to anyone, but I honestly feel like sometimes it's hard (or damn-near impossible) for a straight white male to understand how privileged he is in this world. It's ever harder for straight white rich males to recognize their privilege (and rich people in general). People who are rich - and the people who make excuses for the rich - think that working hard is the key to success in this country. But the rich have a social safety net that will catch them if they fall. They are born with chances that many poor people never get. They typically do not have to deal with violence and gang presence in their neighborhoods while they are growing up. They are not crammed into over-crowded, under-funded & under-staffed schools.

There are people who have never worked hard for a day in their life, yet they are wealthy. There are people who worked hard their entire adult lives, yet they are not wealthy.

"Chris Hayes, author of the new book Twilight of the Elites: America After Meritocracy, notes that when citizens of different countries are polled about their perception of how easy it is to start off poor and work their way up to wealth, "the U.S. is near or at the top in terms of people who say 'yes.' And yet it is also near the bottom in terms of actual social mobility." Sure, the Civil Rights movement, feminism, and equal opportunity laws have helped to remove many of the barriers to success -- but people at the top tend to stay at the top, from clique to clique, and generation after generation. "Those who climb up the ladder will always find a way to pull it up after them, or to selectively lower it down to allow their friends, allies, and kin to scramble up," Hayes writes.The powerful are liable to game systems (like school admissions processes) designed to reward merit; they'll also go to great lengths to maintain their bank accounts and their positions (consider, for instance, just about everyone involved in creating the subprime mortgage crisis). And despite the fact that we are all supposedly born with the same legal rights, the elite are rarely punished for their misdeeds, particularly compared to those lower down on the socioeconomic chain. "The idea that we are a meritocracy is a vast oversimplification, a self-serving and self-justifying one," says Hayes. "If you believe that the model is that those who are smartest and hardest working end up with the most power or the most lucrative jobs, then ... one conclusion to draw from that [is] that the people currently occupying those positions must be meritorious, which I think is an insidious myth."

Sociologist Stephen McNamee makes some similar points in his 2004 book The Meritocracy Myth, though he emphasizes the circumstances we are born into as a determining factor in where we'll end up. "The race to get ahead is a relay race in which we inherit a starting point from our parents that in itself creates huge inequalities of opportunity unrelated to the merit of discrete individuals, including, and especially, unequal access to educational opportunity," McNamee explains. Being born to wealthy, powerful, or well-credentialed parents doesn't just help to ensure an individual will have elite educational experiences; his childhood and college experiences in turn ensure that he will make important social connections and fit in culturally, multiplying his chances for unusual success."The SAT was supposed to level the playing field so that the Ivies, for example, were not just the provenance of the elite," Barron notes. But the game has become rigged in favor of the wealthy, who can afford to pay for years of test prep and college application tutoring for their children.As McNamee puts it: "If Americans believe that individuals 'get what they deserve' based on their merit (innate abilities, having the right attitude, working hard, playing by the rules), then distain for the unsuccessful is seen as warranted.""Merit hard liners downplay the effects of luck," says McNamee. "But the imperfections and ultimate uncertainty of both the stock market on Wall Street and the labor market on Main Street add an undeniable element of luck into the mix."

"Major structural changes in the U.S. economy such as de-industrialization, automation, and globalization have displaced workers quite independent of the merit of individuals," says McNamee. "The historical decline in self-employment and the concomitant rise and dominance of large oligarchic corporations (including chains and franchises) have created barriers of entry for starting and sustaining small businesses and sharply reduced the entrepreneurial path to mobility." Those at the top sometimes fail to understand how much their wealth and power are a function of their environment. "Often those who are privileged," writes McNamee, "at least compared to the very poor, do not recognize or acknowledge these advantages and often mistakenly attribute their 'success' to individual merit alone -- i.e. being born on third base having thought you hit a triple." Despite the fact that most Americans believe our country is still The Land of Opportunity, the greatest meritocracy in the world, the United States is actually a terrible place for fortune-seekers."

Need more convincing? New York Times political commentator David Brooks tries to disprove Hayes' points but actually ends up proving them.




The Republican Party looks out for the wealthy individuals in our society (and, by extension, the business and corporations that these individuals own & operate) first and foremost. That's just the facts. In the past 40 years or so, CEOs have gone from earning 20 times more than the average worker, to more than 230 times the average worker. However, our nation's tax rates are no longer accounting for this discrepancy.

G.W. Bush cut V.A. benefits. Barack Obama increased them. The recently-released G.O.P. budget cuts spending on veterans by eleven billion dollars. This budget is written by Paul Ryan. It repeals the repatriation tax on profits corporations earn overseas then bring back to the United States. It would double student loan insurance rates, from 3.4% to 6.8%. People who make less than $30,000 a year, i.e. poor people, will see their effective tax rates increase. And the worst part is, Ryan can't even say whether the Romney-Ryan Plan would balance the budget. Trickle-down economics does not work. Increasing the tax burden for poor people, while decreasing the tax burden for rich people (as the Romney-Ryan Plan aims to do) is not a way to make all of us richer, as we are told. Instead, it is simply an upward redistribution of income. - paraphrased from Cambridge professor of economics Ha-Joon Chang.


I'll close this diatribe with a quote from Lee Atwater, Republican consultant and former chair of the R.N.C. (Republican National Committee). For context, Mr. Atwater is answering a question in 1981, during his time as a member of the Reagan administration. The question concerns the Republican Party's so-called Southern Strategy, and Reagan's version of it:

"You start out in 1954 by saying, 'n-i-g-g-e-r, n-i-g-g-e-r, n-i-g-g-e-r.' By 1968 you can't say 'n-i-g-g-e-r' — that hurts you. Backfires. So you say stuff like forced busing, states' rights and all that stuff. You're getting so abstract now [that] you're talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you're talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is [that] blacks get hurt worse than whites. And subconsciously maybe that is part of it. I'm not saying that. But I'm saying that if it is getting that abstract, and that coded, that we are doing away with the racial problem one way or the other. You follow me — because obviously sitting around saying, "We want to cut this," is much more abstract than even the busing thing, and a hell of a lot more abstract than 'n-i-g-g-e-r, n-i-g-g-e-r'."

I am by no means saying that all Republicans feel this way, but it's worth noting that this man was a top Republican thinker, theorist, and political strategist.

I'm not even necessarily pro-Democrat at this point, but if you're not wealthy and you're still voting for a Republican candidate (with a few notable exceptions), then you're voting against your own self-interests. Democrats are basically the lesser of two evils. It's like this: "The U.S. two party system is basically split between corporatists that have absorbed an Evangelical rhetoric to get votes [Republicans], and corporate apologists that sometimes care about social issues [Democrats]."


This This and This.

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 11:31 PM

Democrats: Care more about feeling good with social issues and just want goverment to control everything.
Republicans: Can be fiscally reaposonable, but want to dictate how I live my own life.

I don't like both, so I'm a libertarion. Will a libertarion win this year? No. But I'm least I'm voting for someone who I agree with more then half of what he says.
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