[linlindesu]

The Fujoshi, on 26 June 2012 - 10:41 PM, said:

Also why should I be offend to the point that I get upset Solanis over anyone liking to wear the swastika? If that's the cause I should dislike caucasian people because they killed off my ancestors, on both sides and because minorities are misrepresented. I'm part naive American as well.It's their choice to wear it and I have no right to say "YOU SHOULDN'T DO THAT." Offensive or not. You ignore it like most things in life and move on.

I don't care if the swastika gets banned or not, I repeat. I feel that it should be all the way. Why stop at the swastika? Why not just ban anything that seems offensive, like Pot head or Pedo bear? Or most of Hetalia cosplayers in military uniforms? Or Yoko?

I decided to be a bigger person and not rip to shreds your lack of an argument and just focus on the matter at hand.
I will instead simply point out that they do ban the pot leaf. they do ban overly revealing outfits that are outside of IL law. they do ban offensive terms on T-shirts.

People are asking to ban a symbol. They are not asking to ban military cosplay.

No one in this thread is talking about Germans. They are talking about Nazis.
If you'd like to say they are one in the same, please explain to my liberal german friends that they are clearly nazis. I'm sure they'd enjoy that.

[solanis]

Just because YOU don't find something offensive, Fujoshi, doesn't mean that it's not offensive. Wearing a swastika armband or a schutzstaffel eagle IS OFFENSIVE. No amount of circular logic and backpedaling on your part will make those symbols NOT hate speech.

Intent isn't magical. Hetalia cosplayers putting on armbands probably don't want another genocide of the jews, but the fact of the matter is, that's what their armband symbolizes.

A very simple, clear-cut solution is just to ban nazi symbolism from uniforms, armbands, etc.

[Kamiokande]

This thread is built around the assumption that the swastika arm bands worn at ACen were to honor the Nazi party and what it represents. The swastika arm bands at ACen were used for the opposite of that. Yes, the cosplayers with swastika arm bands were being offensive. They were being offensive to Nazis. I'm not offended by them because I'm not a Nazi and I don't like Nazis. I don't think ACen should ban the swastika just to protect the feelings of people who might be offended by a negative portrayal of Nazis.

[linlindesu]

Kamiokande, on 26 June 2012 - 11:48 PM, said:

This thread is built around the assumption that the swastika arm bands worn at ACen were to honor the Nazi party and what it represents. The swastika arm bands at ACen were used for the opposite of that. Yes, the cosplayers with swastika arm bands were being offensive. They were being offensive to Nazis. I'm not offended by them because I'm not a Nazi and I don't like Nazis. I don't think ACen should ban the swastika just to protect the feelings of people who might be offended by a negative portrayal of Nazis.

...
wtf.
I wouldn't call some of the realistic cosplays in full SS garb from no series at all a "negative image"
nor would I the APH cosplayer that places swastikas on uniforms that were never drawn with one in the first place.

[solanis]

I don't think the thread should be shut down just because a handful of crazies (Fujoshi, kamiokande et al) are saying racist and/or hateful ignorant things here. If anything, their behavior demonstrates why the use of these symbols needs to be banned.

[Mari_Queen_of_Fools]

solanis, on 27 June 2012 - 12:11 AM, said:

I don't think the thread should be shut down just because a handful of crazies (Fujoshi, kamiokande et al) are saying racist and/or hateful ignorant things here. If anything, their behavior demonstrates why the use of these symbols needs to be banned.

The only time I've ever wished the facebook "like" feature would carry into everything else. I like this comment very much as it wraps up everything so nicely.
Well put.

[linlindesu]

solanis, on 27 June 2012 - 12:11 AM, said:

I don't think the thread should be shut down just because a handful of crazies (Fujoshi, kamiokande et al) are saying racist and/or hateful ignorant things here. If anything, their behavior demonstrates why the use of these symbols needs to be banned.

you're right but, you know how these things go :/
and it is partially those that respond ( myself, you, ken, etc.) that fuel the flames. If we never said anything I doubt the thread would be locked but we all sort of feel like we have to. That ignorance deserves an answer when sometimes it probably would be all in our best interests to let it go.

But wow, late night forum boom o_0

[Kamiokande]

linlindesu, on 26 June 2012 - 11:51 PM, said:

...
wtf.
I wouldn't call some of the realistic cosplays in full SS garb from no series at all a "negative image"
nor would I the APH cosplayer that places swastikas on uniforms that were never drawn with one in the first place.

They looked like Hogan's Heroes cosplays. Quite negative for the Nazis.

[linlindesu]

Kamiokande, on 27 June 2012 - 12:23 AM, said:

They looked like Hogan's Heroes cosplays. Quite negative for the Nazis.

go see the military meet up threads from the past few years and go tell a few of those guys.

[Wingy Baby]

Things are getting a little heated up right now, so I am locking this thread for the night.
Just for the night.
It'll come back once we've all chilled out. :]

[Firak]

The only thing I will say on this matter is a variety of things can be vastly insulting to a variety of people. What may be intolerable to some may not even register as a complaint to another person, as has been shown numerous times in this thread. It all depends on a person's perspective.

kenkendazo, on 26 June 2012 - 10:15 PM, said:

Yeah but sterotypes never locked folks up in gas-chambers.

I believe that's actually exactly what they did. Along with several other similar acts.

[Sapphy]

It was a little disappointing seeing people wandering around in public wearing Nazi paraphernalia, I'll admit. I fully understand that they are well within their legal right to dress up like that. However:

I do hope all the cosplayers wearing Nazi symbols for fun realize that it is still a very dark time in man's history and that there are still people alive today who were directly affected by what the Nazi party accomplished in their reign. The cosplayers that choose to dress up in hate-drenched regalia need to realize that people can and will look down on them and shun them for using such symbols in their carefree costumes. It can be seen as a huge disrespect to the survivors and kin thereof.

When you attend a convention, not everyone in the hotels and surrounding areas are congoers. The general public is there, too, and they won't see a Hetalia or Hellsing cosplayer. They'll just see someone dressed up as a Nazi.

[sentinel28a]

At ACen 2011, I noticed a shop was selling what was clearly Nazi paraphenalia. SS collar flashes, SD sleeve diamonds (the SD was an arm of the Gestapo), Hitler Youth blood daggers, and armbands reading such charming things as Konzentrationslager Dachau.

Wearing things like that around either betrays a distinct lack of humanity or a distinct lack of sense. The SS and the SD were responsible for the deaths of over 20 million people. Is that what you want to be wearing around as cosplay? The uniform of mass murderers?

"I didn't know what that means" is not much of an excuse. "I don't care, it's my right!" isn't either. Just because you have the right to do something doesn't mean you should. The skinheads and KKK marched through Skokie back in the early 80s--and yes, they had the right to do so, which was upheld by the Supreme Court. I don't think it was exactly a celebrated event.

You can cosplay as characters from Hellsing, Hetalia, or Gundam without being a jerk about it. Wearing that paraphenalia is admitting you're either too stupid to remember World War II or you don't give a damn, and either one is not going to make people think well of you. It also might avoid getting punched in the face.

Nazi stuff belongs in one place: a museum, so we can never forget what they did, and hopefully never allow it to happen again. ACen is better than this.

Ben Da Mad Irishman

[Genichiro]

Anyone wishing to dress up like a Nazi needs to realize that there are many people that are going to frown down upon them. It's their right, of course. Just as we allow the KKK to exist, they are allowed to dress up like Nazis. However, no one dressing up like a Nazi should expect a commendation from anyone; they might get the opposite if the dress the part too well. As I mentioned before, I don't want to deny anyone a costume choice, but at the same time, everyone needs to acknowledge that some costumes draw more negative attention than others, and should consider this before committing to wearing such outfits.

[STVO]

Sapphy, on 28 June 2012 - 11:36 PM, said:

It was a little disappointing seeing people wandering around in public wearing Nazi paraphernalia, I'll admit. I fully understand that they are well within their legal right to dress up like that. However:

I do hope all the cosplayers wearing Nazi symbols for fun realize that it is still a very dark time in man's history and that there are still people alive today who were directly affected by what the Nazi party accomplished in their reign. The cosplayers that choose to dress up in hate-drenched regalia need to realize that people can and will look down on them and shun them for using such symbols in their carefree costumes. It can be seen as a huge disrespect to the survivors and kin thereof.

When you attend a convention, not everyone in the hotels and surrounding areas are congoers. The general public is there, too, and they won't see a Hetalia or Hellsing cosplayer. They'll just see someone dressed up as a Nazi.

Agreed 100%! I don't like to be the one to tell someone "No you can't cosplay as this!" as I personally can't stand hearing people say things like "Hey this is an anime con, you can't dress as Batman, Dr. Who, or Pinky Pie!!!" This is different though. Like Sapphy said, a lot of the hotels and outside areas also have people not within the convention that don't know about Hellsing or Hetalia, you can't blame them if they're offended.

Simply put, if you cosplay as a Nazi from either of those series or a person representing a hate group, can you at least cover up or alter the hate symbol? As long as you get the rest of the costume right, it shouldn't be that big of a deal IMO.

[sentinel28a]

STVO, on 29 June 2012 - 07:52 AM, said:

Agreed 100%! I don't like to be the one to tell someone "No you can't cosplay as this!" as I personally can't stand hearing people say things like "Hey this is an anime con, you can't dress as Batman, Dr. Who, or Pinky Pie!!!" This is different though. Like Sapphy said, a lot of the hotels and outside areas also have people not within the convention that don't know about Hellsing or Hetalia, you can't blame them if they're offended.

Simply put, if you cosplay as a Nazi from either of those series or a person representing a hate group, can you at least cover up or alter the hate symbol? As long as you get the rest of the costume right, it shouldn't be that big of a deal IMO.

As I recall, there were a few Gundam cosplayers (at least, I think they were Gundam) who dressed in an SS-like uniform, but they altered the eagles, deleted the swastikas, and wore a plain red armband. Most people would get the Nazi reference, but then it's more of a cosplay, and much easier to explain.

I loathe Hetalia, but from the few episodes I was able to watch, Germany was dressed in a WWII-style German uniform, but had no swastikas on display. Matter of fact, I don't even recall him having the German eagle.

Ben Da Mad Irishman
"Correct me if I'm wrong"

[XenoBlade]

sentinel28a, on 29 June 2012 - 03:28 AM, said:

At ACen 2011, I noticed a shop was selling what was clearly Nazi paraphenalia. SS collar flashes, SD sleeve diamonds (the SD was an arm of the Gestapo), Hitler Youth blood daggers, and armbands reading such charming things as Konzentrationslager Dachau.

Wearing things like that around either betrays a distinct lack of humanity or a distinct lack of sense. The SS and the SD were responsible for the deaths of over 20 million people. Is that what you want to be wearing around as cosplay? The uniform of mass murderers?

"I didn't know what that means" is not much of an excuse. "I don't care, it's my right!" isn't either. Just because you have the right to do something doesn't mean you should. The skinheads and KKK marched through Skokie back in the early 80s--and yes, they had the right to do so, which was upheld by the Supreme Court. I don't think it was exactly a celebrated event.

You can cosplay as characters from Hellsing, Hetalia, or Gundam without being a jerk about it. Wearing that paraphenalia is admitting you're either too stupid to remember World War II or you don't give a damn, and either one is not going to make people think well of you. It also might avoid getting punched in the face.

Nazi stuff belongs in one place: a museum, so we can never forget what they did, and hopefully never allow it to happen again. ACen is better than this.

Ben Da Mad Irishman

THIS. I agree wholeheartedly.

Which reminds me, I swear Hetalia is Japan's excuse to stereotype (which it loves to do for other countries) to its heart's content. Lol

[myrla]

if you want to see Nazi stuff, check out the UBoat at Museum of Science and Industry. They have tons of it there. Just sayin'. And no, I don't watch Hetalia or Gundam - to me, they were cosplaying Nazis.

[KirbyFanOne]

Okay, so Nazi symbols are touchy.

Can I dress up as Wehrmacht then?

[myrla]

Again, I have no problems with people making replica uniforms to a degree. Leave the Swastikas and other things like that off. Basic uniforms aren't as big of a deal to me.

As Wehrmacht were the Nazi armed forces, to me, falls under same rule as previous.

[solanis]

KirbyFanOne, on 30 June 2012 - 04:02 PM, said:

Okay, so Nazi symbols are touchy.

Can I dress up as Wehrmacht then?

It's a less obvious insignia, but it's still Nazi-related. The real question is, why would you want to? What sort of personality/morality deficiencies are you suffering from that you would think this is appropriate attire for an anime convention, or indeed, life in general?

[OtakuAngelD]

I think KirbyFan1 was trying to make the statement that to say no to one type of costume is to say no to many other types of costumes.

They are trying to point out this logic train that you yourself have started. The logic being this:

Nazis aren't okay. Nazi uniforms aren't okay. Anything resembling a Nazi uniform, also not okay. You say so yourself

Quote

As Wehrmacht were the Nazi armed forces, to me, falls under same rule as previous.

Thus, you ban Gundam cosplay, Hetalia Cosplay, Trinity Blood Cosplay, Strike Witches Cosplay and many many more. Simply because the uniform resembles that which you find offensive. After all, many those uniforms have the same basic style as the uniforms worn by the Nazis.

I think that is what they were trying to get at with such a question. The fact that you immediately attack them and call them morally deficient is uncalled for. I suppose being mature and reasonable is just too much to ask for for such a hot button issue.

[solanis]

A mature and reasonable individual doesn't show up to an anime convention in Nazi garb, or attempt to make excuses for the legitimacy of showing up to an anime convention in such clothing. Wearing a uniform isn't offensive, wearing a uniform with offensive symbols is offensive. Stop being so contrarian, I hope for your sake that you don't actually believe what you post.

[OtakuAngelD]

Contrarian? There are many things in the world I don't like. I don't like people wearing metals they never earned, however, I didn't throw a fit when the Stolen Valor Act unconstitutional. Should I ask that no one wear metals on their cosplay or uniforms they didn't personally earn? Should I get upset about every steampunk that wears jump wings? I don't. Because I understand that it's a costume. I know how you feel about Nazis. I get that. However, I don't believe that personal attacks are the way to go. You don't know these people and you don't care to know them. You don't know if they are mature or not. You don't know anything more than they're cosplaying something I don't like.

I in no way support the Nazi party for what it did. I, do however support the Constitution and the First Amendment and I served 6 years in the armed service defending not only your right to complain but their right to wear what they want.

[solanis]

Thank you for your service. A convention isn't a free speech zone, it's a private event with admission. ACen can impose whatever rules they like on costumes and other attire, and in fact, they do just that for many other categories of offensive things. The issue isn't that Nazi cosplayers aren't real nazis and didn't "earn" their uniforms by... murdering jews, people of color, and gays.

[Voltaire30]

I do not usually post in such polarizing topics, nor do I like to, as people's words can be easily twisted to mean something else.

That being said, this topic is no longer beneficial or helpful. The points have already been made, and it has been delving into the realm of Flames and Traps. I have recommended that this topic be closed permanently due to such activity which is breading hostility and malcontent on these forums.

Furthermore I would recommend that people refrain from additional posts, and ignore additional quotes by others of your posts. This matter has already been brought to ACen’s attention, and you will hear the outcome at a later time. All viewpoints will be considered.

[myrla]

OtakuAngelD, on 01 July 2012 - 03:58 PM, said:

I think KirbyFan1 was trying to make the statement that to say no to one type of costume is to say no to many other types of costumes.

They are trying to point out this logic train that you yourself have started. The logic being this:

Nazis aren't okay. Nazi uniforms aren't okay. Anything resembling a Nazi uniform, also not okay. You say so yourself



Thus, you ban Gundam cosplay, Hetalia Cosplay, Trinity Blood Cosplay, Strike Witches Cosplay and many many more. Simply because the uniform resembles that which you find offensive. After all, many those uniforms have the same basic style as the uniforms worn by the Nazis.

I think that is what they were trying to get at with such a question. The fact that you immediately attack them and call them morally deficient is uncalled for. I suppose being mature and reasonable is just too much to ask for for such a hot button issue.

No, you are twisting my words.

I said "IDENTIFYING NAZI REGALIA". This would be inclusive to any Swastika, Nazi-specific decoration, that type of thing.

And you know what? I've never seen ANY of those Anime you listed. So I would not see those costumes and think "OH ANIME".

THAT is my point. I've never once said "ban all uniforms". Please note this. There is a big difference between someone in a very accurate uniform without identifying insignia and with.

(As I've stated previously this particular era in history I've spent a few years of my life researching, filling in gaps, etc. it is something that I may take more personally than others).

PS: I had originally made this post earlier, but it didn't post, so I was reposting it. Sorry that it's after the post preceding, but I wanted to make my point clear.

This post has been edited by myrla: 01 July 2012 - 05:25 PM

[Alkaren Hyralt]

As Phil has said, the topic is under review by the higher ups of the convention.

Topic closed.

[Purplegodess]

We are sorry it has taken so much time to get back to everyone on this subject. Obviously it was cause of much discussion both ways and lots of research, because most conventions haven't taken a step in either direction on this topic. We have decided that Nazi insignia is not allowed as part of costumes at ACen anymore. You can wear the uniform, should you choose, when making your cosplays but please leave the swastikas, SS bolts,and the like off of it, or have it covered. The Exhibit Space will be asking vendors to not have these costume pieces for sale. Thank you for your understanding.