sentinel28a, on 21 May 2012 - 10:18 PM, said:
A lot of protesters are against the violence that NATO supports like invading other countries like Lybia, Syria, etc.
I may have misconstrued your remarks, Motoko, but it sounds like that you're saying NATO supports violence. I was saying that it has actually done more to prevent violence in its 60 year history than even the UN. And given the rulers of Libya and Syria (see: Qaddafi, Moammar; Assad, Bashir), I think deposing genocidal maniacs (see: Hussein, Saddam) is a pretty good use of violence.
This is the problem I have with the Occupy movement. What exactly does it want? Corporations out of politics? That's not going to happen. Ever. Corporations are made of people, and people want things. People have the right to lobby for their rights (AARP is the largest lobbying organization in the US, for instance).
Redistribution of wealth? Confiscating the wealth of the 1% is not going to improve the economy or create jobs. In fact, it's going to make it worse. I agree that the billion-dollar golden parachutes need to go. But it is the 1% that have always been the engines of commerce that create the jobs. Steve Jobs was a member of the 1%. Franklin Roosevelt and John F. Kennedy were members of the .001%. All three men created between them thousands, possibly millions of jobs. It's no crime to be rich, as long as you do it honestly.
Jobs? Camping in Grant Park is not going to get you a job. The degree in English Literature you paid $55,000 for is not going to get you a job. In fact, college might not get you a job. But the people who are screaming in the streets that no one has jobs for Underwater Basketweaving degrees have no one to blame but themselves.
Intrusive government that's too big? I agree with that one...as does the Tea Party. Join us, we have cookies.
The simple fact is that the free ride is over. Every government in the world is flat broke, and politicians are trying to kick the can down the road to keep their own jobs. We can pull ourselves out of this hole we're in, but we're going to have to sacrifice, reform, and kick out politcos who are more interested in fleecing us than helping us. It will be tough on everyone.
We can do it, but it's not going to done screaming in the streets, flying red flags, wearing Che shirts and generally making a horse's rear of oneself. Maybe most Occupiers don't do that, but they're not doing anything but spinning their wheels.
Ben Da Mad Irishman
I do see what you are saying. Now, I am speaking for my friends and I (who have occupied with me and what we think, I'm not representing everyone obviously, but this is merely the general opinion of what we say when asked about why we are apart of occupy)
We don't want corrupt lobbying and we see it as unfairly ruling the government and do not want politics to be a bidding numbers game as "the one with the most money is voted in" by being more known about like through ads and such. A huge part of lobbying we don't like is the medical field lobbying like with the AMA, PHARMA and AHIP. Passing bills to keep insurance companies denying people like me actually because my mom and I have a pre-existing condition that we can't control (it's genetic and no, it's not obesity). (No, the new health care bill did not fix the pre-exisiting condition problem. You can still be denied but instead of the company going free, they are fined instead per day. But in some cases, it's cheaper for them to be fined than cover your medical costs). Or drug companies lobbying to make conditions where profits can be at the highest and for even government standards of screening drugs to be more lenient to get drugs on the market NOW. Personally I think this is what happened with Vioxx and Yaz/Yasmin/Ocella--not enough clinical trials to show long term or more side effects.
The problem that I and my friends have is that why do big wigs have to make so much money? Why isn't 1 billion dollars enough? Why do you have to make 500 billion dollars in profits? Why not use that money to increase wages of workers, use that money to stop outsourcing jobs to China and other nations and give even MORE jobs to people here in the United States? Or use that money to give workers who do not have a lot of benefits (like insurance) those benefits? Why do profits have to be so high? When I see "share the wealth" that is what comes to my head and also my friends in the Occupy club we have at school.
When it comes to jobs, I believe that outsourcing to other nations is a huge blame for that. Like why aren't Apple products/computers/shoes/clothes made in the United States? To keep prices low, or to avoid the losing of money to maximize profit to pay little wage to the workers? That is what I question. And with college degrees like you said, yeah it's the people's choice to choose what they major in, but I do think that outsourcing a lot of things (heck even Radiology is being outsourced to other countries!) is a big factor in that taking away jobs people could have.
One thing with the tea party is that is is different from Occupy (how I and my friends see it) a lot (not saying all) of the tea party has a strong view for total free market economics. The occupiers that I know among my friends and close people I know we are curious to discover and think about changes that can be made to our free market capitalist system--just a different way of running things. We discuss this a lot in our club and I'm having a hard time remembering my club advisor brought up some political philosophers that talked about things like this and I am having a hard time remembering their names (since we read a lot of different texts talking about this). I think Heath and Potter wrote on something like this.
great debating, by the way. im enjoying this.