[XenoBlade]

❤Mokyu❤, on 04 May 2012 - 03:46 PM, said:

By costumes do you mean half-naked underage girls drowning in plastic necklaces and bracelets?

That's all I saw...

Pretty much what I saw too. lol

That and some girl's idea to decide to go commando, wear a extremely short dress, and go up the escalator. >_> Not cool or "hot"

Dark Spellmaster, on 04 May 2012 - 03:51 PM, said:

I agree, a small fee for the ticket to the rave shouldn't stop fans of Acen who have already bought badges, but it will keep out creepers that want to pay for just the rave.

Costumes I mean the ones's that actually managed to create visual kei like outfits of bright colors and flashing lights. One guy and his girlfriend clearly went all out, because they had lights in his mohawk, and in her dreads, as well as lights and strobes all over their clothing doing some pretty intricate patterns.

And the half drowning girls need to go to bed, or again, no one under 21 enters the dance.

No one under 21? That is pretty much the entire crowd. lol

[chompzie]

XenoBlade, on 04 May 2012 - 03:54 PM, said:

No one under 21? That is pretty much the entire crowd. lol

Me and my 5 friends could have the entire room then! 8D

[SurvivalStrategy]

XenoBlade, on 04 May 2012 - 01:05 PM, said:

Cuz everywhere else is smaller. Smaller space, more lines. Also as discussed earlier, its complicated to move it to the convention center. Also the soapbubble is more then 15%. the room holds 4000 ppl, so when they let ppl in, the line is still ridiculous. Im no where on the side of the soapbubble, but this is just a delicate situation. I would love if they move the soapbubble, and prioritize the masq, but money talks. As much as we all hate it, acen is going towards the Reactor path.

Just have to look at it in a logical sort of way. That is why the masq got screwed over, and why the soapbubble was barely late, and went on for a tad longer. (it was 9:30 when masq was over)

Please, please read my post with the math. This is exactly the point I was trying to make. 4,000 is 15% of attendees (also note we didn't actually hit capacity so attendance might have been anywhere from 12% to 15%-ish). The rave is at most 3 to 4 times more popular than the masquerade, but it got more than that amount of time versus the masquerade, so if you look at it in a logical sort of way (instead of how it sometimes "feels") it doesn't really make sense. It's not a "sad reality" so much as a misconception. It's big, but not big enough to warrant its number of paid guests or this decision.

This post has been edited by SurvivalStrategy: 04 May 2012 - 09:22 PM

[XenoBlade]

SurvivalStrategy, on 04 May 2012 - 09:10 PM, said:

Please, please read my post with the math. This is exactly the point I was trying to make. 4,000 is 15% of attendees (also note we didn't actually hit capacity so attendance might have been anywhere from 12% to 15%-ish). The rave is at most 3 to 4 times more popular than the masquerade, but it got more than that amount of time versus the masquerade, so if you look at it in a logical sort of way (instead of how it sometimes "feels") it doesn't really make sense. It's not a "sad reality" so much as a misconception. It's big, but not big enough to warrant its number of paid guests or this decision.

I did read it with the math. That is the initial people. Alot of people tend to come later after the line, and once people are inside, there is still a line, which I can't exactly pull out a number, but with all those people, it's pratically assured that it's more then 15%. Also (dunno if "in a logical sort of way" is today's catchphrase) if you want to look at the math of time vs the masq, the masq is 3 hours long (well when it DOES run on time) the soap bubble is a rough time between 5-7 or so hours, which is less then the proportions of the masq from a guest ratio (going off 3-4 times large. That IS if what I'm reading is what you are trying to get at) The irony of where I'm being nudged to stand is that I'm ON the side of the soap bubble, which I am defintely not. But denying that large groups of people go there and the fact if acen alter the soap bubble, and there won't be any backlash, that's the misconception.

Again, I really wish the soap bubble wasn't the "new main event" and all the overly drunk people and slutty folk would go elsewhere, but moving them to the convention hall, or somewhere smaller isn't the solution. (if you read ThatOneChick's post about the convention center, that automatically rules it out. Lots of stuff has to be dealt with, and you know what that means, a price increase. That'll be a whole new can of beans. This is why this is a delicate situation, which most likely won't be addressed. More money is in the soap bubble. When some dance gets priority over the heart of an anime convention, it's reality that something is MUCH bigger then it.

[linlindesu]

XenoBlade, on 04 May 2012 - 09:56 PM, said:

I all the overly drunk people and slutty folk would go elsewhere,

Slutty folk.
new favorite word.


I miss the ticketing system for the masquerade btw :x if you guys could bring that back, I would cry tears of joy.

[tfcreate]

I suppose not wanting to deal with unions is enough of a reason to place patrons at risk.
I withdraw my suggestion.

[XenoBlade]

Before you resort to sarcasm, at least name both reasons. Money is an issue too. You may not go, but to people that do, im sure they don't want an increase. Sides, i doubt ppl complain cuz of safety.

Ms liny, i also see mah typo lol haha

[BakaBarbarian]

MH121, on 03 May 2012 - 02:27 PM, said:

The only problem I have with this whole experience is, why the heck did someone schedule so many BIG events in the same ballroom, one after another. And if the problem is too many events, then perhaps it's time to expand into other hotels. And if the problem is not enough room, perhaps it's time to cut back some events. Something has to give.

If the crowd is getting rowdy, perhaps the event is not the right one to have at the convention. If the crowd is getting out of control, perhaps it's time to call in the police. Saying that you have no control over the crowd does not justify what happened. But, obviously, that seems to be the crowd ACEN wants to attract.

Not saying it's right or wrong, but just like in the "real world", when push comes to shove, money speaks. Revenue from cosplayers in masquerade is pennies compared to the potential of a DJ and band. The people who participated in masquerade means nothing to the higher ups of the ACEN. If one person leaves, three more will fill in his/her place. No loss there. Capitalism at its best.

Agreed. Something has to give. If canceling Soap Bubble is going to lead to less attendance, or fewer underage attendees running loose, that's a GOOD thing. The folks who are coming strictly for Soap Bubble are not the ones you want there anyway. I realize ACEN's management has struggled with quality vs. quantity for many years now, but as others have pointed out, this is getting down to some very basic levels of safety and moral responsibility.

IRT are not cops. They can't even revoke badges, as it turns out (wow, by the way). Placing all the expectations of cops upon them, while they have no legal or procedural authority to do much of anything, not only places a ton of volunteers in a bad situation, but it means basically the inmates are running the asylum. It boggles my mind that upper management still refuses to see this as a problem, given the extremely poor behavior of some of the folks who have been attracted to this con for years now.

What is it going to take to get through to the upper management that security at this con is a terrible joke? That ACEN has a deservedly terrible reputation in the anime/manga/associated fandom community? Some 14-year-old girl getting raped in the corner of the ballroom? Some underage drinker passing out and dying from alcohol poisoning? You think it's expensive to pay for some DJs that never do their set, how about hiring attorneys for the inevitable lawsuits as this thing gets more and more out of hand?

The arrogance of ACEN's upper management in thinking they can just bury their heads in the sand over known security issues with this con is breathtaking and why I feel I just can't bring myself to support the con by coming to any future years. I feel dirty enough having attended this year, knowing all that went on. I didn't feel safe at ACEN. Not while I was trying to get through hordes of people attending photo shoots and not caring who they knocked over in the process. Definitely not when I was trying to get to the non-masq, non-rave content on Saturday, dodging obvious creeps who had no idea what this con was even about or people engaging in random property destruction. And not while I was trying to get my shopping done Sunday when the dealer's room/artist alley seemed to be taken over by creepy, very unwashed attendees with Sunday-only badges who didn't even know what Hello Kitty was. I didn't feel safe the whole weekend, and because I value my safety, I can't justify bringing myself or my money to ACEN anymore.

I don't even care about the masquerade, and haven't for years, although I respect the time and effort people put into their costumes and skits. So when it gets someone like me upset that a major chunk of it was canceled in favor of one of the things that is drawing creeps to this con, making people like me who have been coming for years feel completely unsafe...it's not just a slap in the face to those who worked hard on their skits and costumes. It's a slap in the face to everyone they SHOULD be trying to keep coming back year after year, whether they attend the masquerade or not.

[SurvivalStrategy]

XenoBlade, on 04 May 2012 - 09:56 PM, said:

I did read it with the math. That is the initial people. Alot of people tend to come later after the line, and once people are inside, there is still a line, which I can't exactly pull out a number, but with all those people, it's pratically assured that it's more then 15%. Also (dunno if "in a logical sort of way" is today's catchphrase) if you want to look at the math of time vs the masq, the masq is 3 hours long (well when it DOES run on time) the soap bubble is a rough time between 5-7 or so hours, which is less then the proportions of the masq from a guest ratio (going off 3-4 times large. That IS if what I'm reading is what you are trying to get at) The irony of where I'm being nudged to stand is that I'm ON the side of the soap bubble, which I am defintely not. But denying that large groups of people go there and the fact if acen alter the soap bubble, and there won't be any backlash, that's the misconception.

Again, I really wish the soap bubble wasn't the "new main event" and all the overly drunk people and slutty folk would go elsewhere, but moving them to the convention hall, or somewhere smaller isn't the solution. (if you read ThatOneChick's post about the convention center, that automatically rules it out. Lots of stuff has to be dealt with, and you know what that means, a price increase. That'll be a whole new can of beans. This is why this is a delicate situation, which most likely won't be addressed. More money is in the soap bubble. When some dance gets priority over the heart of an anime convention, it's reality that something is MUCH bigger then it.

It can't be more than 15%. 16% is over capacity for the ballroom. 16% is the cops come and shut Acen down. If we get to 4,000 entrants, IRT goes into Law of Equal Exchange mode and only lets people in when people leave. That didn't happen (and if it did, the RAVERS would be the ones wanting to move out of the ballroom and to another venue). As of 1am we know it had only hit 12%. Now maybe it really picked up at 2am when 1000 ravers got off work or something (I'm seriously doubting this), but even then it only hit 14% or 15%. I'm basing my math on the place being totally full, which it wasn't, and even then it's only 15% and simply isn't that much of the con.

I don't think very many people here are complaining about the original, theoretical schedule. But when push came to shove the masquerade had more hours per attendee than the rave, which defies the notion that you can somehow justify this with numbers. Just as you say you'd be on the masquerade side if not for the numbers, honestly if the numbers were actually that bad I'd be taking the same "it's sad but you just have to accept it" stance as you. But the math doesn't work out, it's just a misconception, so I'm taking the position that rave importance should reflect actual interest and be toned down a few notches.

This post has been edited by SurvivalStrategy: 05 May 2012 - 11:10 AM

[Cricket]

While we can't revoke badges or take them off of people, We can take their badge information, give them warnings, and if they continue to be a problem they can be escorted to the pen and dealt with by upper management.

While there are some obvious creepers around, we do our best to take every report seriously and if people are pointed out situations will be taken care of, if not through us, through Rosemont PD. I've personally handed over 3 people to RPD for problems before and they were removed from the event.

This post has been edited by Cricket: 05 May 2012 - 01:33 PM

[Voxx]

Like I said before in another thread:
Have the Soap Bubble and Hardcore Synergy at the same time on Friday. Keep the Soap Bubble in the Hyatt Ballroom and have it all ages, but put the Hardcore Synergy in a different location with 18+ and have staff check ID's and badges. This way you can have more main programming on Saturday to focus on the Masquerade and other events. We do not need two nights of dances and there is so much going on to cram into one weekend and I feel that one day should be dedicated to the dances for those that want to attend and one day focused on other main programming events.

I don't think people should have to pay extra to get into the dances. It is a part of Acen and it will always be. Some years I just don't feel up to going because I have other things scheduled around it and then other years I happen to have nothing going on at that time so I head on over to the dances. Having to know a head of time and paying extra would not be fair. If they keep the dances on one night and the Masquerade on another night I think that might help and make everyone happy.

[XenoBlade]

SurvivalStrategy, on 05 May 2012 - 08:49 AM, said:

It can't be more than 15%. 16% is over capacity for the ballroom. 16% is the cops come and shut Acen down. If we get to 4,000 entrants, IRT goes into Law of Equal Exchange mode and only lets people in when people leave. That didn't happen (and if it did, the RAVERS would be the ones wanting to move out of the ballroom and to another venue). As of 1am we know it had only hit 12%. Now maybe it really picked up at 2am when 1000 ravers got off work or something (I'm seriously doubting this), but even then it only hit 14% or 15%. I'm basing my math on the place being totally full, which it wasn't, and even then it's only 15% and simply isn't that much of the con.

I don't think very many people here are complaining about the original, theoretical schedule. But when push came to shove the masquerade had more hours per attendee than the rave, which defies the notion that you can somehow justify this with numbers. Just as you say you'd be on the masquerade side if not for the numbers, honestly if the numbers were actually that bad I'd be taking the same "it's sad but you just have to accept it" stance as you. But the math doesn't work out, it's just a misconception, so I'm taking the position that rave importance should reflect actual interest and be toned down a few notches.

Whoa, I never said I wasn't on the Masq's side. I've always been on that side since it is the heart and soul of the anime convention. Just felt I needed to get that out there first. And yet again, I'm mentioning more then 4,000 because there are more then the initial line. People leave, more go in, and it goes on. So in total, it's more then 4,000. (So I'm not talking about all at once.)

In all I think you are completely misunderstanding why I have even brought any of this up. I just don't see Acen (well I HOPE not) screwing over the masq because they secretly like the soap bubble more. Seeing as how the masq got cut and the soap bubble didn't is pretty much backing the fact that the soap bubble pulls numbers much higher then the masq, and the time they denote is equal to the interest. Do I want this to happen? No. Do I want the masq to be the highlight again? Yes. But as a few have noticed and mentioned, the success of the soap bubble can't be ignored, and if there is a change to it that people don't like, not only will the soap bubble people lose out, acen as a whole will. As those people help fund bringing guests and other stuff over.

And as Voxx stated, I think that would be the best option, move it to friday. That way it is still there, and the masq won't get screwed over again. ALSO if they implement this next year, they can include old AND new skits to the masq by extending the time (and doing true justice to those who had skits this past acen and got screwed over) Honestly, I think we should all pull together and go for this option.

[BakaBarbarian]

Cricket, on 05 May 2012 - 01:31 PM, said:

While we can't revoke badges or take them off of people, We can take their badge information, give them warnings, and if they continue to be a problem they can be escorted to the pen and dealt with by upper management.

While there are some obvious creepers around, we do our best to take every report seriously and if people are pointed out situations will be taken care of, if not through us, through Rosemont PD. I've personally handed over 3 people to RPD for problems before and they were removed from the event.

I have no doubt that you did your job. What I object to is that people like you are put in the position of having to act as law enforcement when you actually have no law enforcement capabilities. I object to people expecting volunteers to police the behavior of 23,000 people at a con with a party reputation, without taking the steps necessary to get some professionals onhand who DO have the legal authority to do something about obvious problems. I object to the reactivity of security at this con for years, and the fact that proactive security is what has been needed for a long time yet has not been obtained, which has only led to things getting more and more out of hand. I object to people freaking out over possibly losing attendees and not freaking out about the tremendous potential for someone to be seriously harmed at this con because things have just gotten worse and worse over the years.

[Krystal]

I'll be honest; I cried. The skit that was to be performed by I. my boyfriend, and a good friend was in the works for about a year and a half. My boyfriend had wanted to do a skit as our characters for over 12 years, but waited until he found the "perfect" person to do the cosplay with. This was also kind of a bad year for me, but since about last November, we CONSTANTLY spoke about being up there and doing our skit, and regarded it the highlight of our year. It really meant more to us than just being on stage for two and a half minutes.

I even got my Mom a badge in hopes she would come and see me perform. This would have been the first time she saw me do my cosplaying, and I was SO freaking excited that she was going to be proud of me for something I really enjoyed. She ended up having a work emergency that day and couldn't make it, so I guess that's honestly the high point of Saturday; the fact that my mom didn't have to be there to see my friends and I so crestfallen over this.

In terms of getting ready for Acen, I won't even get into the effort that I and the others put into their costumes. I ate roughly 600-700 calories a day for three weeks to lose ten pounds because I knew I'd be on stage. I went to bed early on Friday, cutting out a lot of time with my friends, so I could be ready for the masquerade. ALL of us wasted crucial con time in that dang green room. Thankfully I didn't notice it because I was hopped up on Tylenol PM since my costume hurt so badly but I was afraid if I took it off for a while it wouldn't look as good for the masquerade once I put it back on.


Up until now, my case isn't an exception at all; what I just described is probably very close to that of the Mario Princesses, Zelda, Pokemon group, and other hopeful skits I saw backstage. I could tell that everyone put their hearts and souls into what they SHOULD have been doing that night. And really, whoever made the decision to cancel the skits betrayed us.

I mean, it's nice that they comped our badges for next year...but most of the people I saw back there I knew because they were involved with the con in other ways. A TON of us are already comped. For those who aren't, awesome, but for the lot who are, it was a slap in the face. But hey, I heard that the masquerade staff had to fight just for that to even happen. Also, this will be the one angry tone I take: How DARE you make the masquerade staff relay the decision to the audience and us. Whoever made the decision should be brave enough to look me in the eye and explain it. I appreciate everything the masquerade staff did for us, and my heart goes out to them as much as it does to my peers.

Cosplayers are never treated very well. In my family, at school, and when I go out, us "nerds" are never given priority. I honestly thought we would be here. Instead, like it is almost anywhere else, priority was given to partying. This thread mentions that the raves bring in more numbers than the masquerade, so I guess they really are the majority. But just because we're a smaller number, doesn't mean you disregard us! Take care of us! You wouldn't destroy the habitat of an endangered species to make room for another animal because it's overpopulated, would you?

Maybe the cosplayers who truly care about the art of cosplay, and staff who cares about those cosplayers ARE endangered species. Maybe our numbers are small compared to those who would rather rave 24/7. All the more reason to look out for us. Take care of us. The day you decided to run an ANIME convention, it became your job.

[chompzie]

Voxx, on 05 May 2012 - 01:44 PM, said:

Like I said before in another thread:
Have the Soap Bubble and Hardcore Synergy at the same time on Friday. Keep the Soap Bubble in the Hyatt Ballroom and have it all ages, but put the Hardcore Synergy in a different location with 18+ and have staff check ID's and badges. This way you can have more main programming on Saturday to focus on the Masquerade and other events. We do not need two nights of dances and there is so much going on to cram into one weekend and I feel that one day should be dedicated to the dances for those that want to attend and one day focused on other main programming events.

I don't think people should have to pay extra to get into the dances. It is a part of Acen and it will always be. Some years I just don't feel up to going because I have other things scheduled around it and then other years I happen to have nothing going on at that time so I head on over to the dances. Having to know a head of time and paying extra would not be fair. If they keep the dances on one night and the Masquerade on another night I think that might help and make everyone happy.

Just wanted to chime in and say that I think this is a fantastic idea. That is all.

[SurvivalStrategy]

XenoBlade, on 05 May 2012 - 02:06 PM, said:

Whoa, I never said I wasn't on the Masq's side. I've always been on that side since it is the heart and soul of the anime convention. Just felt I needed to get that out there first. And yet again, I'm mentioning more then 4,000 because there are more then the initial line. People leave, more go in, and it goes on. So in total, it's more then 4,000. (So I'm not talking about all at once.)

In all I think you are completely misunderstanding why I have even brought any of this up. I just don't see Acen (well I HOPE not) screwing over the masq because they secretly like the soap bubble more. Seeing as how the masq got cut and the soap bubble didn't is pretty much backing the fact that the soap bubble pulls numbers much higher then the masq, and the time they denote is equal to the interest. Do I want this to happen? No. Do I want the masq to be the highlight again? Yes. But as a few have noticed and mentioned, the success of the soap bubble can't be ignored, and if there is a change to it that people don't like, not only will the soap bubble people lose out, acen as a whole will. As those people help fund bringing guests and other stuff over.

And as Voxx stated, I think that would be the best option, move it to friday. That way it is still there, and the masq won't get screwed over again. ALSO if they implement this next year, they can include old AND new skits to the masq by extending the time (and doing true justice to those who had skits this past acen and got screwed over) Honestly, I think we should all pull together and go for this option.

Cricket please correct me if I'm wrong but I thought they were counting the number of entrants and not necessarily unclicking for everyone who leaves since that would be a lot harder. Either way it seems like a lot of handwaving to say the event has 100% turn around. Anyway I'm trying my best to establish a fair upper bound based on the 2,700+ number we've been given, but if you're going to run with 4,000 and stretch it you should also take into account the + in the 1,000+ for the masquerade. And the masquerade has its own turnaround. And plenty of people gave up on going after the fire alarm. And there are more conflicts earlier in the evening. I left all this out because I wanted to establish a "worst case" to look at. Unless you have more numbers, I think it's a *huge* stretch to fill the gap between 10% (12% was the product of me rounding up to the nearest thousand from 2,700) and "much, much more than 16%" with nothing but gut feeling. Especially when my entire point is gut feeling doesn't look that accurate numerically.

This post has been edited by SurvivalStrategy: 05 May 2012 - 04:15 PM

[Cricket]

BakaBarbarian, on 05 May 2012 - 02:45 PM, said:

I have no doubt that you did your job. What I object to is that people like you are put in the position of having to act as law enforcement when you actually have no law enforcement capabilities. I object to people expecting volunteers to police the behavior of 23,000 people at a con with a party reputation, without taking the steps necessary to get some professionals onhand who DO have the legal authority to do something about obvious problems. I object to the reactivity of security at this con for years, and the fact that proactive security is what has been needed for a long time yet has not been obtained, which has only led to things getting more and more out of hand. I object to people freaking out over possibly losing attendees and not freaking out about the tremendous potential for someone to be seriously harmed at this con because things have just gotten worse and worse over the years.

That is not financially possible. We had 200 members for IRT in 3 shifts and 2 special duties and people still felt we were understaffed. and that's with 50 ops on the floor at all times minimum.

So say ACEN rented security, To meet the same requirements as this year, we would need 50 people at 10$/hr which turns into 500$ an hour, say 8 hour shift is 4,000$ that's 12k minimum for the convention, per day. 36k total. and even then there are no guarantees that nothing will happen to people, on top of dealing with the attitude of Security. It would be a nightmare.

Now, say you just have the raves/dance/masq shifted by security, doesn't that defeat the point of having them to start with if they are only going to be in one area? problems just move away from them at that point. and again it would cost about 10k.

For what it's worth, ACEN has RPD on site at all times.

This post has been edited by Cricket: 05 May 2012 - 04:14 PM

[❤Mokyu❤]

Krystal, on 05 May 2012 - 02:46 PM, said:

I'll be honest; I cried. The skit that was to be performed by I. my boyfriend, and a good friend was in the works for about a year and a half. My boyfriend had wanted to do a skit as our characters for over 12 years, but waited until he found the "perfect" person to do the cosplay with. This was also kind of a bad year for me, but since about last November, we CONSTANTLY spoke about being up there and doing our skit, and regarded it the highlight of our year. It really meant more to us than just being on stage for two and a half minutes.

I even got my Mom a badge in hopes she would come and see me perform. This would have been the first time she saw me do my cosplaying, and I was SO freaking excited that she was going to be proud of me for something I really enjoyed. She ended up having a work emergency that day and couldn't make it, so I guess that's honestly the high point of Saturday; the fact that my mom didn't have to be there to see my friends and I so crestfallen over this.

In terms of getting ready for Acen, I won't even get into the effort that I and the others put into their costumes. I ate roughly 600-700 calories a day for three weeks to lose ten pounds because I knew I'd be on stage. I went to bed early on Friday, cutting out a lot of time with my friends, so I could be ready for the masquerade. ALL of us wasted crucial con time in that dang green room. Thankfully I didn't notice it because I was hopped up on Tylenol PM since my costume hurt so badly but I was afraid if I took it off for a while it wouldn't look as good for the masquerade once I put it back on.


Up until now, my case isn't an exception at all; what I just described is probably very close to that of the Mario Princesses, Zelda, Pokemon group, and other hopeful skits I saw backstage. I could tell that everyone put their hearts and souls into what they SHOULD have been doing that night. And really, whoever made the decision to cancel the skits betrayed us.

I mean, it's nice that they comped our badges for next year...but most of the people I saw back there I knew because they were involved with the con in other ways. A TON of us are already comped. For those who aren't, awesome, but for the lot who are, it was a slap in the face. But hey, I heard that the masquerade staff had to fight just for that to even happen. Also, this will be the one angry tone I take: How DARE you make the masquerade staff relay the decision to the audience and us. Whoever made the decision should be brave enough to look me in the eye and explain it. I appreciate everything the masquerade staff did for us, and my heart goes out to them as much as it does to my peers.

Cosplayers are never treated very well. In my family, at school, and when I go out, us "nerds" are never given priority. I honestly thought we would be here. Instead, like it is almost anywhere else, priority was given to partying. This thread mentions that the raves bring in more numbers than the masquerade, so I guess they really are the majority. But just because we're a smaller number, doesn't mean you disregard us! Take care of us! You wouldn't destroy the habitat of an endangered species to make room for another animal because it's overpopulated, would you?

Maybe the cosplayers who truly care about the art of cosplay, and staff who cares about those cosplayers ARE endangered species. Maybe our numbers are small compared to those who would rather rave 24/7. All the more reason to look out for us. Take care of us. The day you decided to run an ANIME convention, it became your job.

[Cricket]

SurvivalStrategy, on 05 May 2012 - 04:04 PM, said:

Cricket please correct me if I'm wrong but I thought they were counting the number of entrants and not necessarily unclicking for everyone who leaves since that would be a lot harder. Either way it seems like a lot of handwaving to say the event has 100% turn around. Anyway I'm trying my best to establish a fair upper bound based on the 2,700+ number we've been given, but if you're going to run with 4,000 and stretch it you should also take into account the + in the 1,000+ for the masquerade. And the masquerade has its own turnaround. And plenty of people gave up on going after the fire alarm. And there are more conflicts earlier in the evening. I left all this out because I wanted to establish a "worst case" to look at. Unless you have more numbers, I think it's a *huge* stretch to fill the gap with nothing but gut feeling. Especially when my entire point is gut feeling doesn't look that accurate numerically.

The way we do things is we have 2 people on the door with clickers keeping a constant double check on the count, then one person on exit with a clicker, whenever the exit gets to be about 50, or after about an hour, his number is sent down to us to allow in.

[SurvivalStrategy]

My one question would be how cons like Otakon are able to use the convention center security. Do they pay more? I agree that it doesn't really solve the problem, it's not like they can do anything desirable that IRT can't or that they would tolerate otaku more, I'm just honestly curious how this works.

So then the number you mentioned excludes hundreds or thousands of people who left?

This post has been edited by SurvivalStrategy: 05 May 2012 - 04:51 PM

[BakaBarbarian]

Cricket, on 05 May 2012 - 04:13 PM, said:

That is not financially possible. We had 200 members for IRT in 3 shifts and 2 special duties and people still felt we were understaffed. and that's with 50 ops on the floor at all times minimum.

So say ACEN rented security, To meet the same requirements as this year, we would need 50 people at 10$/hr which turns into 500$ an hour, say 8 hour shift is 4,000$ that's 12k minimum for the convention, per day. 36k total. and even then there are no guarantees that nothing will happen to people, on top of dealing with the attitude of Security. It would be a nightmare.

Now, say you just have the raves/dance/masq shifted by security, doesn't that defeat the point of having them to start with if they are only going to be in one area? problems just move away from them at that point. and again it would cost about 10k.

For what it's worth, ACEN has RPD on site at all times.

And the cost of a lawsuit/damages because someone is raped, assaulted, or killed is...what? A heck of a lot more than $36k, let me assure you. If we're going off of what's financially prohibitive, what's the cost of this con getting so out of control that someone's life is destroyed?

As far as the "attitude of security," maybe it's precisely that attitude that's been needed for years now. People who care more about keeping people safe than anything else. If I don't feel like it's a safe environment in which to celebrate my fandoms, how can I consider this con fun and worthwhile?

I'd like to reiterate, this is no attack on IRT. I'm just disgusted with the impossible position the higher-ups have put volunteers in.

This post has been edited by BakaBarbarian: 05 May 2012 - 05:04 PM

[STVO]

I too like Voxx's idea of making two dances on Friday (or Saturday, dance night/performance night) then have an 18 or 21+ after party event somewhere where it's a few TVs with video games, food, booze, and maybe a small dance floor (I know there's room parties but I think this could be an ACen held event.) They could make a similar event for the 17- demographic (obviously no booze, lol) but held in a different area.

If these ideas aren't anyone's cup of tea, may I make a suggestion of having the Masquerade opening up ACen on Saturday? How I see it when they open the show, there will be little to No pressure with them finishing on time or even being booted. The big problem was the Masquerade started very late! ACen needs to be careful and make sure events end on time or at least with little delay. In case of the masquerade finishing up early, perhaps you can have the concerts there (or if ACen feels there will be enough time in between Masq. And Soap Bubble, schedule concerts, if not perhaps "back up panels.) I know some like it being later but honestly it's had schedule conflicts for years from what I've heard so why not have it open up Saturday, get the kinks worked out early, then it can last as long as it needs to?

Honestly while I havent been to the Masquerase in years, I wish try could have had their show and feel bad for all the participants, the people running the show, and the fans. While I think the heads should have maybe tried to give the Masquerade people
Two or three hours after the fire alarm, it was a spare of the moment decision. I can't fault them too much for letting the soap bubble start. Maybe if that happens again, let the masquerade open up Sunday?

Next year, give the masquerade some extra time whether you start early or not. I think it should personally, but please ACen, help make it up to your fans for this year. While I'm not a big Masquerade person, I sincerely feel bad for this year's sad turn of events.

This post has been edited by STVO: 05 May 2012 - 05:30 PM

[Mullenkamp]

As someone who's been in the masq many many times, and seen only a SMALL PORTION of what goes on behind the scenes to get it ready, I'm thinking that there's little chance it could ever open up Saturday programming. People who are running the masq and people who are going to be performing in the masq are busy making preparations right up until the minute the masq starts already - there are rehearsals and check-ins and run-throughs that have to be done, everyone's music and audio have to be acquired and put in order (and fixed, if there are any issues). From the performers' end, that's going on up until early Saturday afternoon, most of the time - and that's just the point at which we've handed everything off to the staff and had it okayed. Once it's okayed, the staff have more work to do.

So squeezing a day and a half worth of work into just one day so that the masq can be first thing Saturday? ...Not seeing that happening.

First thing Sunday would of course be feasible from a technical standpoint... but essentially it would be like moving Glee or Supernatural to a 5am slot on Monday mornings. You don't take something that hugely popular and stage it at a time when pretty much everyone's going to be either asleep, or getting up early because they have to get a head start on the commute (checking out of hotels, in the congoers' case). The masq at least USED to be one of the biggest, most popular events at ACen. Moving it to Sunday morning would pretty much be putting it to sleep gently, IMO.

[STVO]

Mullenkamp, on 05 May 2012 - 06:02 PM, said:

As someone who's been in the masq many many times, and seen only a SMALL PORTION of what goes on behind the scenes to get it ready, I'm thinking that there's little chance it could ever open up Saturday programming. People who are running the masq and people who are going to be performing in the masq are busy making preparations right up until the minute the masq starts already - there are rehearsals and check-ins and run-throughs that have to be done, everyone's music and audio have to be acquired and put in order (and fixed, if there are any issues). From the performers' end, that's going on up until early Saturday afternoon, most of the time - and that's just the point at which we've handed everything off to the staff and had it okayed. Once it's okayed, the staff have more work to do.

So squeezing a day and a half worth of work into just one day so that the masq can be first thing Saturday? ...Not seeing that happening.

First thing Sunday would of course be feasible from a technical standpoint... but essentially it would be like moving Glee or Supernatural to a 5am slot on Monday mornings. You don't take something that hugely popular and stage it at a time when pretty much everyone's going to be either asleep, or getting up early because they have to get a head start on the commute (checking out of hotels, in the congoers' case). The masq at least USED to be one of the biggest, most popular events at ACen. Moving it to Sunday morning would pretty much be putting it to sleep gently, IMO.

Fair enough, I totally didn't mean put less emphasis on it if you thought that's what I'm saying and the Sunday morning suggestion was meant more as what should have been done in hindsight instead of canceling it entirely this year. I thought the okays, the rehearsals could be started between 8-10, the show starts anywhere from 10 am to 12 pm, then it takes as long as it needs to take and if it happens to end early, then some filler panels occur (maybe a replay of AMVs or Anime Hell?) I'm really not de-emphasizing the importance, I even figured if
The show started at 12 and had to run until 9, do that. If none of this can't work, well then don't listen to me, lol. Other idea I have is tell the other panels/concerts to wrap it up at least an hour before the masquerade starts. This is an event you don't want to delayed, I think it' was silly it was 6 something and the event hasn't even started when my friend and I were walking to McDonalds.

[MH121]

I have heard that the concert before Masquerade was scheduled to do 7 or 8 songs set but the band end up doing like 15+ songs set. Pretty much double. And they started late. I don't know the details but if that is true, that's either 1) pretty rude of the band to do that and/or 2) programming for not stopping it at the agreed upon set count.

[Voxx]

Mullenkamp, on 05 May 2012 - 06:02 PM, said:

As someone who's been in the masq many many times, and seen only a SMALL PORTION of what goes on behind the scenes to get it ready, I'm thinking that there's little chance it could ever open up Saturday programming. People who are running the masq and people who are going to be performing in the masq are busy making preparations right up until the minute the masq starts already - there are rehearsals and check-ins and run-throughs that have to be done, everyone's music and audio have to be acquired and put in order (and fixed, if there are any issues). From the performers' end, that's going on up until early Saturday afternoon, most of the time - and that's just the point at which we've handed everything off to the staff and had it okayed. Once it's okayed, the staff have more work to do.

So squeezing a day and a half worth of work into just one day so that the masq can be first thing Saturday? ...Not seeing that happening.

First thing Sunday would of course be feasible from a technical standpoint... but essentially it would be like moving Glee or Supernatural to a 5am slot on Monday mornings. You don't take something that hugely popular and stage it at a time when pretty much everyone's going to be either asleep, or getting up early because they have to get a head start on the commute (checking out of hotels, in the congoers' case). The masq at least USED to be one of the biggest, most popular events at ACen. Moving it to Sunday morning would pretty much be putting it to sleep gently, IMO.

Moving it to Sunday definitely would not be good. Maybe if they had a musical performance on Friday afternoon and then later that night have the Soap Bubble and rave. Then Saturday could be open for the Masquerade as well as time for another musical guest.

Or maybe anyone participating in the masquerade should check in on Thursday? If all of the prep work, or at least some of work can be done on Thursday then maybe the masquerade could take place on Friday? All just suggestions, but there has to be something to help with the scheduling of so many events going on throughout the weekend.

[STVO]

MH121, on 05 May 2012 - 06:16 PM, said:

I have heard that the concert before Masquerade was scheduled to do 7 or 8 songs set but the band end up doing like 15+ songs set. Pretty much double. And they started late. I don't know the details but if that is true, that's either 1) pretty rude of the band to do that and/or 2) programming for not stopping it at the agreed upon set count.

Not cool. I personally think someone from staff should have shut them down. If they're late then well sorry, you're going to have to do less songs or leave. It isn't fair to the people in the masquerade. Bands are important to ACen but so is the masquerade. Maybe concerts could be held elsewhere and other panels cam be in the area of Masquerade prior in case those bands refuse to limit their songs?

[Cricket]

BakaBarbarian, on 05 May 2012 - 04:58 PM, said:

And the cost of a lawsuit/damages because someone is raped, assaulted, or killed is...what? A heck of a lot more than $36k, let me assure you. If we're going off of what's financially prohibitive, what's the cost of this con getting so out of control that someone's life is destroyed?

Here's the thing though and this is going to sound a bit dark, so i'm going to state this again that my opinions do not reflect the staff or Acen in anyway.

If those types of things are going to happen, They are going to happen regardless of who/what polices the convention, Hell I've been beaten up at a concert with plenty of Security there, Hell i've gotten my head slammed into the wall in a public bathroom because someone was drunk. There is only so much prevention people can reasonably do when there are those with ill intent in mind, it's sadly the risk of going to any event.

[Mullenkamp]

STVO, on 05 May 2012 - 06:13 PM, said:

Fair enough, I totally didn't mean put less emphasis on it if you thought that's what I'm saying and the Sunday morning suggestion was meant more as what should have been done in hindsight instead of canceling it entirely this year. I thought the okays, the rehearsals could be started between 8-10, the show starts anywhere from 10 am to 12 pm, then it takes as long as it needs to take and if it happens to end early, then some filler panels occur (maybe a replay of AMVs or Anime Hell?) I'm really not de-emphasizing the importance, I even figured if
The show started at 12 and had to run until 9, do that. If none of this can't work, well then don't listen to me, lol. Other idea I have is tell the other panels/concerts to wrap it up at least an hour before the masquerade starts. This is an event you don't want to delayed, I think it' was silly it was 6 something and the event hasn't even started when my friend and I were walking to McDonalds.

Oh, no - I wasn't thinking that's what you were saying. I was just not sure if you'd participated in the masq, and I'm guessing that most people who haven't participated don't know just how much time and effort is involved from everyone. Anytime my group has been in a masq (at any con, not just ACen), it pretty well eats our weekend from Thursday until Saturday night - and while a lot of our Saturday is spent sitting backstage, the staff are still working on making sure that all the prep that we and all the other people sitting backstage have provided is ready to go in the proper order, with the proper soundtrack, with proper credit given, with assistance ready to help anyone with an unwieldy costume, bringing water to those whose costumes keep them overly warm, making sure everyone's lined up when they need to be, and in past years the craftsmanship judges have been trying to get through the long list while not bumping into when each participant is going to be onstage (I think I heard they weren't judging DURING the actual masq this year?)... and that's just what I've *seen*. I can only guess at all the other stuff they're doing between the time we last saw them for run-through and the time we get to the green room.

Basically, unless everyone - staff and participants - got in Thursday and started right away, pushing it any further forward than it already is (and ACen's masq is already earlier than most cons' masqs) seems like it would add a ton of extra stress on the staff, who have been under enough pressure as it is.

I'd be all for participating in an earlier masq if the staff felt that was enough time for them (cram all the check-ins and run-throughs into Friday, maybe, and let them have Saturday morning to do the technical stuff?), but given that there were two main programming tracks listed in the guide this year and they were both booked solid, ACen couldn't let it have as long as it took. There was no wiggle room this year, which resulted in this fiasco, and I seriously doubt they're going to cut back on bringing the big events as the con grows larger. But the only alternative, really, is to add more space, or get serious about how and when the available space is being utilized.

...You know, the idea of having all the musical acts and dances in one "main programming" room, without chairs, and then having another "main programming" room for the masq and large panels that does have chairs... that has some merit. I mean, if a concert goes too long and cuts into the rave... does it matter all that much? People are still able to listen to music and dance either way...

[Dark Spellmaster]

Here's an odd thought following along Voxx's idea. What if we move Hardcore to Saturday, Friday night put up something called like "Acen has Talent" where you can have the skits and mix it with singing groups. This being said the best skits get put on for Masq and you start the Hardcore later and limit the age to 21 and up. Do away with the bubble and focus then on the Talent show. You make up the money you might loose from the bubble by instead offering tickets to a special movie or event at a differnet time of year.

Like for example: Acen Halloween bash, or a Acen Christmas event. Or even something in the summer that's a one night only event. Even maybe the Soap Bubble. Only charge for getting into it, and make up the difference that way if it means a loss for the con.