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Georgia to require drug test for welfare benefits? Ewwwww politics!!!!!! I know I know,

#31 User is offline   YoungBirdcall 

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 09:49 AM

View PostSanta Finland, on 04 May 2012 - 01:27 AM, said:

Did they not see out how this worked for Florida? Only 2% of people failed the drug test and it cost the state $200,000. The Daily Show recently did a bit on it.


THIS

Instead of letting politicians distract us with hot-button social issues like this one, and like abortion, and like gay marriage, why don't we, as constituents, focus on things that are actually important for this country and its future? Like widespread governmental corruption? Like SuperPACs and the way in which they contribute to said corruption? Like actually trying to fix the economy? Like making sure our representatives are willing to work together, as opposed to only being willing to work with members of their own party? Like reducing the tax burden on our rapidly-shrinking middle class?

Drug testing for welfare recipients and/or unemployment recipients is a waste of time, money, and attention.

THIS IS EXACTLY THE TYPE OF S**T THAT OUR POLITICIANS WANT US TO FOCUS ON, SO THAT WE DON'T FOCUS ON THE ISSUES THAT ACTUALLY MATTER.

And here's another newsflash: most people don't even want to be on unemployment or welfare. Studies indicate that there are many more people who qualify for these programs than actually sign up for them, most likely because a good number of people don't want to take "government hand-outs" because they are too prideful (and that's fine, but remember, your tax dollars pay for these programs, so you are entitled to them if you need them).

Please, please, please, stop caring about unimportant bulls**t and start focusing on political issues that have some f**king substance. The vast majority of people on welfare and unemployment are not "cheating the system." If you really want to make sure that your tax dollars don't go to waste, perhaps you should concentrate on fighting the rampant fraud and wasting of money that our governmental bureaucracy seems to revel in. Perhaps you should object to the benefits of teachers being cut by states that don't have the money (because of corruption and inefficiency) to pay these teachers what they promised. Teachers don't collect social security. They get a pension. Illinois, like many states, matches the contributions that each teacher makes to their pension with each paycheck. Or at least, they said that they were. Turns out, they haven't been, and they don't intend to. Now they want to slash teacher pensions drastically. This is outrageous. There is s**t like this happening almost daily, in every state. Why is no one complaining about things like this? Oh, right, because it's much easier to complain about fictional "welfare queens" living off of your hard-earned money.

GET A F**KING CLUE.
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#32 User is offline   minecraftsmurf 

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 10:27 AM

View PostSanta Finland, on 04 May 2012 - 01:27 AM, said:

Did they not see out how this worked for Florida? Only 2% of people failed the drug test and it cost the state $200,000. The Daily Show recently did a bit on it.


$200,000.00 is nothing for an entire state.... if an individual has knowledge that they are going to take a drug test what do you think they are going to do? Show up and fail? People are not that stupid... well most of them at least. A: they study (as in they stop taking drugs for an amount of time in order to pass upon passing they resort back to their habits). B: they simply do not show. C: they get a urine sample from an individual who does not do drugs and with the cheap and ez to get wizanator their good to go. Therefore, the results are not accurate. Only a foolish individual would show up knowing they are going to fail....

How to solve? A: Random drug tests (catch them off guard without time to prepare). B: use other means to conduct the drug test... urine is not the only way. There are other significant methods that are much harder to... cheat.

View PostYoungBirdcall, on 04 May 2012 - 09:49 AM, said:

THIS

Instead of letting politicians distract us with hot-button social issues like this one, and like abortion, and like gay marriage, why don't we, as constituents, focus on things that are actually important for this country and its future? Like widespread governmental corruption? Like SuperPACs and the way in which they contribute to said corruption? Like actually trying to fix the economy? Like making sure our representatives are willing to work together, as opposed to only being willing to work with members of their own party? Like reducing the tax burden on our rapidly-shrinking middle class?

Drug testing for welfare recipients and/or unemployment recipients is a waste of time, money, and attention.

THIS IS EXACTLY THE TYPE OF S**T THAT OUR POLITICIANS WANT US TO FOCUS ON, SO THAT WE DON'T FOCUS ON THE ISSUES THAT ACTUALLY MATTER.

And here's another newsflash: most people don't even want to be on unemployment or welfare. Studies indicate that there are many more people who qualify for these programs than actually sign up for them, most likely because a good number of people don't want to take "government hand-outs" because they are too prideful (and that's fine, but remember, your tax dollars pay for these programs, so you are entitled to them if you need them).

Please, please, please, stop caring about unimportant bulls**t and start focusing on political issues that have some f**king substance. The vast majority of people on welfare and unemployment are not "cheating the system." If you really want to make sure that your tax dollars don't go to waste, perhaps you should concentrate on fighting the rampant fraud and wasting of money that our governmental bureaucracy seems to revel in. Perhaps you should object to the benefits of teachers being cut by states that don't have the money (because of corruption and inefficiency) to pay these teachers what they promised. Teachers don't collect social security. They get a pension. Illinois, like many states, matches the contributions that each teacher makes to their pension with each paycheck. Or at least, they said that they were. Turns out, they haven't been, and they don't intend to. Now they want to slash teacher pensions drastically. This is outrageous. There is s**t like this happening almost daily, in every state. Why is no one complaining about things like this? Oh, right, because it's much easier to complain about fictional "welfare queens" living off of your hard-earned money.

GET A F**KING CLUE.


I see a liberal!!!! :D Let's scream, swear and pull out fallacies and that will solve everything!!!!

This post has been edited by minecraftsmurf: 04 May 2012 - 10:28 AM


#33 User is offline   YoungBirdcall 

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 10:31 AM

View Postminecraftsmurf, on 04 May 2012 - 10:27 AM, said:

$200,000.00 is nothing for an entire state.... if an individual has knowledge that they are going to take a drug test what do you think they are going to do? Show up and fail? People are not that stupid... well most of them at least. A: they study (as in they stop taking drugs for an amount of time in order to pass upon passing they resort back to their habits). B: they simply do not show. C: they get a urine sample from an individual who does not do drugs and with the cheap and ez to get wizanator their good to go. Therefore, the results are not accurate. Only a foolish individual would show up knowing they are going to fail....

How to solve? A: Random drug tests (catch them off guard without time to prepare). B: use other means to conduct the drug test... urine is not the only way. There are other significant methods that are much harder to... cheat.



I see a liberal!!!! :D Let's scream, swear and pull out fallacies and that will solve everything!!!!


What fallacies? That our government is corrupt, and that hot-button social issues are merely distractions from larger, more complex problems? What's false about that?

And for the record, your mention of "other means to conduct the drug test" would be incredibly expensive for a state. Blood tests and hair tests cost far more money than a simple urine analysis. And random drug testing for welfare & unemployment recipients? That would cost even more money, and isn't even feasible. At that point, you're going to cost the state far more money than you save.

This post has been edited by YoungBirdcall: 04 May 2012 - 10:33 AM

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#34 User is offline   minecraftsmurf 

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 10:36 AM

View PostYoungBirdcall, on 04 May 2012 - 10:31 AM, said:

What fallacies? That our government is corrupt, and that hot-button social issues are merely distractions from larger, more complex problems? What's false about that?

And for the record, your mention of "other means to conduct the drug test" would be incredibly expensive for a state. Blood tests and hair tests cost far more money than a simple urine analysis. And random drug testing for welfare & unemployment recipients? That would cost even more money, and isn't even feasible.


I just responded quickly to that to capture you original post (just in case any desires to edit it arose). :D However, I agree 100% our government highly corrupt and politicians do indeed use highly social issues as distractions. Later today, I'll give you a full response to the above question. Have a few errands to run atm. Oh!! Also, thank you for your insight, you have revived this topic! :)

#35 User is offline   YoungBirdcall 

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 10:38 AM

View Postminecraftsmurf, on 04 May 2012 - 10:36 AM, said:

I just responded quickly to that to capture you original post (just in case any desires to edit it arose). :D However, I agree 100% our government highly corrupt and politicians do indeed use highly social issues as distractions. Later today, I'll give you a full response to the above question. Have a few errands to run atm. Oh!! Also, thank you for your insight, you have revived this topic! :)


haha don't worry, I stand by what I said, and I'm not in the business of editing my comments post-conflict to make myself look better. I eagerly await your response.
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Posted 04 May 2012 - 10:45 AM

Pointing out someone is a liberal as a refuting point? *facepalm*

As much as id like the welfare system to be fixed, this isnt the way to do it. At first i was for it, but when you think about it, this will only hurt us. We'd be picking up the bill. Now i dont agree this is war against the poor or racism (im sorry those aren't strong arguments. If its illegal, it is.) And there are problems with welfare. People have tried to sell me food stamps. Wat? Some people have babies to get welfare. Welfare is helpful, but it needs to be changed.
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Posted 04 May 2012 - 02:14 PM

I think the affects of the Super PACS are greatly exaggerated. A bad candidate is a bad candidate, regardless of how much money they spend. Take the 2010 Nevada senate race for example. Sharron Angle did better fundraising than Reid did. Did not help her that much.

This post has been edited by kahad: 04 May 2012 - 02:14 PM

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 02:23 PM

View PostYoungBirdcall, on 04 May 2012 - 09:49 AM, said:



And here's another newsflash: most people don't even want to be on unemployment or welfare. Studies indicate that there are many more people who qualify for these programs than actually sign up for them, most likely because a good number of people don't want to take "government hand-outs" because they are too prideful (and that's fine, but remember, your tax dollars pay for these programs, so you are entitled to them if you need them).

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!.....oh I'm sorry, were you serious? Come around to my area where people shamelessy use their foodstamps to purchase name brand products that cost twice as much then very nice lady about having it run out. Or talking about how they welfare checks to get their next bling or whatever. My brother even had someone admit when they turned in their application that they don't want they job, they just need to prove they are "looking for work".

These people don't care. These people arn't ashamed. They love getting free money and wish they had even more of it to be honest. It's time we start making getting these handouts even slightly unpleaset to get people off it that are abusing the system.
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Posted 04 May 2012 - 02:30 PM

Greed and corruption, man this government rox.

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 02:59 PM

minecraftsmurf said:



You're funny; in a good way.

YoungBirdcall said:



I don't agree with all of this but I do agree about other matters. Not all states have the same issues. We are not suffering from teacher cuts here, because I was looking up teachers a while ago, but they did cut public services, including libraries.

You must not live in a poor area. In my area people live under mundane conditions and they do little to no work to get money and want it that way. One person was working at Chase making good money and complaining about the amount she makes and thought about stealing money, to her gf, on the bus no less. I also dealt with this on my job; someone was getting unemployment and working part time, but guess what? They didn't report it in.

Another example: My ex bf is trying to dodge payments of child support by going on SSI and his mother is trying to dodge Section 8 by claiming that he is in Chicago when, guess what, he's not. Now if that's not 'messing and abusing the system,' then I don't know what is and guess who pays for this when they do this? You do as well as myself. If you need citations or evidence, then I'll mail you audiotapes of the people in my area and my ex bf/my former mother in law messages stating such things.

Oh and if you say "Why don't you report him/her Fujoshi," what good would that do? They will either:

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2) Do it again anyway

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 03:43 PM

View PostDark Stranger, on 04 May 2012 - 02:23 PM, said:

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!.....oh I'm sorry, were you serious? Come around to my area where people shamelessy use their foodstamps to purchase name brand products that cost twice as much then very nice lady about having it run out. Or talking about how they welfare checks to get their next bling or whatever. My brother even had someone admit when they turned in their application that they don't want they job, they just need to prove they are "looking for work".

These people don't care. These people arn't ashamed. They love getting free money and wish they had even more of it to be honest. It's time we start making getting these handouts even slightly unpleaset to get people off it that are abusing the system.


So basically your area represents the whole of people who get government aid? (Stereotypes do exist, and extremes do exist, like I stated earlier, I have some myself.) But to generalize on just your neighborhood, or even better, the maybe 20 or so people you've seen(and that one your brother has seen), that's not really fair don't you think?

Welfare needs to be changed. It needs to be cleaned up. But really? All the people just want a free check? Not sure if that was a joke or just looking at certain people and saying that is the majority.

Just to add, again, I'm more for revision of welfare. It's too easily abused. What makes it worse is the people who REALLY need it don't get it.

This post has been edited by XenoBlade: 04 May 2012 - 03:46 PM

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 06:40 PM

View PostXenoBlade, on 04 May 2012 - 03:43 PM, said:

So basically your area represents the whole of people who get government aid? (Stereotypes do exist, and extremes do exist, like I stated earlier, I have some myself.) But to generalize on just your neighborhood, or even better, the maybe 20 or so people you've seen(and that one your brother has seen), that's not really fair don't you think?

Welfare needs to be changed. It needs to be cleaned up. But really? All the people just want a free check? Not sure if that was a joke or just looking at certain people and saying that is the majority.

Just to add, again, I'm more for revision of welfare. It's too easily abused. What makes it worse is the people who REALLY need it don't get it.

It's not a few people. I work in a grocery store. I see the entire neighborhood constantlly cuz well they need food. And it's a proven fact that if you pay someone for doing nothing. People love free money, Heck i do too. But if you constantlly give someone something for doing nothing you take away their drive to do any kind of work for themselves at all. We need to stop the goverment from always "extending" these handouts. People need to work for themselves again, succued on their own, fail on their own, stop having big daddy goverment from giving you a saftey net (more like bed) to take care of those people.
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#43 User is offline   minecraftsmurf 

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 06:28 PM

View PostYoungBirdcall, on 04 May 2012 - 10:38 AM, said:

haha don't worry, I stand by what I said, and I'm not in the business of editing my comments post-conflict to make myself look better. I eagerly await your response.


*sips on a cup of coffee* omigosh! I didn’t burn myself for once!! :D

Let’s see, in response to “YoungBirdcall” as promised:

The problem with calming that politicians are attempting to distract ‘us’ by incorporating “hot-button social issues” into their agendas is not true. You, like everyone else have a priority based model regarding politics from what you see as being the most important to what you see as being the least important. This is exactly where the problem emerges. Everyone has a different insight on that priority based model. To some “gay marriage” is at the top of their list, as it directly involves their beliefs throughout their daily lives. To others, the most important political issue on their priority model may be the negative impact of Illegal Aliens and having open borders as this affects us all. Likewise, some individuals may see the slashing of teacher’s benefits as not an important issue and this involves only a considered ‘group” of individuals instead of the entire nation.

*sips coffee* wait… isn’t teachers getting their benefits slashes a hot-button topic? Why are you bringing one up if you are against them? Ah, that’s right, your priority based model!

Ultimately, politics covers such a large area of beliefs, ideals, and theories that it comes down to the question where do we start? And the answer to that question is simple. There is no correct place to start. Why? Because everyone believes we should start in a different location. So how do we start? Groups of likeminded individuals gather and pressure the creation of a bill like this one here regarding a drug test for those applying for government aid benefits paid for by the tax payers. To them, preventing fraud, even at the lowest level is imperative.

#44 User is offline   minecraftsmurf 

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 06:32 PM

View PostYoungBirdcall, on 04 May 2012 - 10:38 AM, said:

haha don't worry, I stand by what I said, and I'm not in the business of editing my comments post-conflict to make myself look better. I eagerly await your response.


Additionally, you bring up a topic that is related to what is at the top of my priority based model (regarding the economy no national defense as this is an entirely different based model that is always on top). I believe the place we should start would be the eradication of all “Unions” (Union based systems) such as the “Teachers Union.” I see Unions as the number one cause for decadence in the United States and the number one threat for our future.

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 07:11 PM

View PostXenoBlade, on 04 May 2012 - 03:43 PM, said:

So basically your area represents the whole of people who get government aid? (Stereotypes do exist, and extremes do exist, like I stated earlier, I have some myself.) But to generalize on just your neighborhood, or even better, the maybe 20 or so people you've seen(and that one your brother has seen), that's not really fair don't you think?

Welfare needs to be changed. It needs to be cleaned up. But really? All the people just want a free check? Not sure if that was a joke or just looking at certain people and saying that is the majority.

Just to add, again, I'm more for revision of welfare. It's too easily abused. What makes it worse is the people who REALLY need it don't get it.


It’s not just welfare fraud, disability fraud is just as bad… if not more so. For example me neighbor is very happy to joke around and admit that he is disabled and no longer able to work do to his “physical disability” (he fell of a truck many years ago where he used to work and hurt his hip). He can walk 100% fine and claims to feel no pain. And every garbage day he has no problems driving around on his little Honda 120 going off home built ramps and shooting his paintball gun at raccoon’s digging in the trash. For a second example, across the street from my uncles house is a lady that is considered “obese.” She is very willingly to admit that she is on disability do to her obesity and that she fakes having a difficult time getting around. I have even seen her chase after her grandchildren at a fairly decent speed showing no signs of pain. I have watched her take handicapped parking spots, than witness individuals trying to unload others in wheelchairs on the side of a busy road because the handicapped spots were all taken.

I would go as far to say that over 30% of individuals on “government aid” are abusing it. Why? Because collecting a check is much easier than working. Additionally, if you talk to individuals on welfare, they will admit that they receive more money in government aid than they would working full time at a low end job. There is no insight for them to work. There are no benefits for them working beyond personal pride.

But… we can just “sugar coat” the issue and look in a different direction because god forbid we offend anyone in our “feel good” world or contemplate the possibility that some individuals may be better than others… after all, it’s easier to feel like “self-important” and “self-entitled” individuals shunning the real world and staring at their collection of “participation trophies.” Than it is to admit that it’s an individual’s fault if they succeed… or fail.

#46 User is offline   Unlucky Slayer 

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 11:10 AM

View Postminecraftsmurf, on 05 May 2012 - 06:32 PM, said:

Additionally, you bring up a topic that is related to what is at the top of my priority based model (regarding the economy no national defense as this is an entirely different based model that is always on top). I believe the place we should start would be the eradication of all “Unions” (Union based systems) such as the “Teachers Union.” I see Unions as the number one cause for decadence in the United States and the number one threat for our future.

And this is where I completely disagree with you. Without unions the companies that the unions work for would have a field day with low pay and would not even bother with safety. (This is just talking steel mill here, but you get the point.) Right to Work in Indiana is just the start to this slippery slope to 3rd world type pay and working conditions.
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#47 User is offline   minecraftsmurf 

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 04:39 PM

View PostUnlucky Slayer, on 06 May 2012 - 11:10 AM, said:

And this is where I completely disagree with you. Without unions the companies that the unions work for would have a field day with low pay and would not even bother with safety. (This is just talking steel mill here, but you get the point.) Right to Work in Indiana is just the start to this slippery slope to 3rd world type pay and working conditions.


*pouts examining my empty cup of coffee* time to make more!

Ah, now that that is fixed…*sips coffee happily* let’s take a look at why unions promote negative ideals for America. :D

Unionization of government employees creates a powerful, permanent constituency for bigger government—one that is motivated, well-funded, and organized. Unlike businesses, governments face little incentive to hold down labor costs. Politicians and bureaucrats, however, do have an incentive to gain public approval in order to secure their positions. Many public-sector employees are employed as police, firefighters, and paramedics—public services that people genuinely want and need, while many others are administrative bureaucrats whose work is not as visible to the public. Thus, when the workers who provide those services are unionized, government officials have a strong incentive to give unions what they want, rather than risk incurring the public’s wrath through the disruption of those services because of strikes. As long as the public services continue to function, the public has little incentive to pay attention to the cost. This means that public-sector unions end up getting most of what they ask for, while taxpayers foot the bill. In time, of course, such profligacy catches up to local governments—but by the time they seek to curb costs, it often is too late to avert financial disaster.

Some states and municipalities especially are squeezed by the fact that, during the 1990’s boom years, they had even less incentive than usual to control their own labor costs because they collected increased tax revenues. Now that those boom times have come to an end, those years of profligacy threaten to create severe problems for the state and local government finances—and for the taxpayers.

*stretches setting empty coffee cup back down* Essential ‘problems’ with unions.

Unions cause job loss… let’s be honest. If an employer does not have the capability, when necessary, to cut hours, benefits, and other company costs he / she is required to lay individuals off to compensate for the difference in revenue. The goal in our economic “recession” is to create jobs not cut them?

Let’s take a look at General Motors! Union ‘contracts’ bankrupt companies! Sure, the executives at General Motors made some horrible decisions however… part of the reason for General Motors to file bankruptcy lies within the contract they had with the United Auto Workers Union. Union leaders are considerably obstinate in re-negotiating contracts when business conditions change.

Employers are required to be competitive in salaries and benefits if they wish to retain the ‘best’ employees, even in this considered ‘recession;’ and employees are required to do a great job in order to remain competitive on a though job market. However, unions take away this very important connection and turn employees and employers into constant adversaries, when their goals are usually very similar.

Unions make America uncompetitive. The artificially high salaries of union workers make American products uncompetitive overseas, and in America. As the world moves into a global economy, it is imperative for companies to be able to hire people at a somewhat competitive rate, especially to do repetitive work like assembly line work.

Unions foster incompetence. Once an individual is in a union, they become incredibly difficult to fire. Thus, incompetent workers are kept working when they should be fired… for the greater good of the company and the other workers.

*beep beep* phone alarm is screaming at me!! I must go! This is good enough for now!! :D

Work Cited:

References:
1. Bellante D, Denholm D, Osorio I. Public-Sector Unionism is a Bad Deal for America. USA Today Magazine; Mar2010, Vol. 138 Issue 2778, p24-27, 4p.
2. Anner, Mark. 2009. “Two Logics of Labor Organizing in the Global Apparel Industry.” International studies Quarterly; Sep2009, Vol. 53 Issue 3, p545-570, 26p, 1 diagram, 4 charts, 1 graph.

#48 User is offline   YoungBirdcall 

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 12:30 PM

View PostThe Fujoshi, on 04 May 2012 - 02:59 PM, said:

You must not live in a poor area.


I was born and raised in a poor area.
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#49 User is offline   YoungBirdcall 

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 01:21 PM

View Postminecraftsmurf, on 05 May 2012 - 06:28 PM, said:

*sips on a cup of coffee* omigosh! I didn’t burn myself for once!! :D

Let’s see, in response to “YoungBirdcall” as promised:

The problem with calming that politicians are attempting to distract ‘us’ by incorporating “hot-button social issues” into their agendas is not true. You, like everyone else have a priority based model regarding politics from what you see as being the most important to what you see as being the least important. This is exactly where the problem emerges. Everyone has a different insight on that priority based model. To some “gay marriage” is at the top of their list, as it directly involves their beliefs throughout their daily lives. To others, the most important political issue on their priority model may be the negative impact of Illegal Aliens and having open borders as this affects us all. Likewise, some individuals may see the slashing of teacher’s benefits as not an important issue and this involves only a considered ‘group” of individuals instead of the entire nation.

*sips coffee* wait… isn’t teachers getting their benefits slashes a hot-button topic? Why are you bringing one up if you are against them? Ah, that’s right, your priority based model!

Ultimately, politics covers such a large area of beliefs, ideals, and theories that it comes down to the question where do we start? And the answer to that question is simple. There is no correct place to start. Why? Because everyone believes we should start in a different location. So how do we start? Groups of likeminded individuals gather and pressure the creation of a bill like this one here regarding a drug test for those applying for government aid benefits paid for by the tax payers. To them, preventing fraud, even at the lowest level is imperative.


Slashing pensions is not a social issue. By definition, it is an economic issue.

In reference to your "priority based model" statements, let me first say that this notion that people have different priorities is so blatantly obvious as to be irrelevant. But, for the sake of argument, I'll address it all the same. Sure, people have different opinions on what needs to be fixed in this country and why. But some opinions are wrong. That's not my opinion; that is a fact. If your opinion is that human beings do not require oxygen to live, then your opinion is wrong. Case in point: people demanding that gay marriage be forever abolished. In the grand scheme of this person's life, the government allowing homosexuals to marry will have zero effect on their fiscal and bodily health. The only aspect of their life that it could possibly affect is their mental health, i.e. their psychological/emotional level of happiness or satisfaction. If two people do something that has zero bearing on you or anyone else, and this bothers you to such a degree that your psychological or emotional health is compromised, then methinks the problem lies with you. This is a social issue, and your priorities should be directed towards more pressing matters (like energy independence, fiscal security, tighter banking regulations, and the like). That's just common sense. Now, certainly, there are people who believe that preventing fraud, even at the lowest level, is imperative. My allegation is that these people have warped priorities. The amount of money that each state would have to spend in order to enact this program, versus the amount of money that each state would save due to having done so, is not justifiable. Florida was a trial run, and guess what happened? The state lost hundreds of thousands of dollars. Randomizing the drug tests, while perhaps being more effective in catching these vile, disgusting drug users who abuse the system, would be fiscally unfeasible and nearly impossible to implement (for reasons which should be obvious). Perhaps, then, these people whose priority based model (an unnecessarily verbose way of saying personal preference) places eliminating Welfare fraud at the top of their To-Do List should re-think their priorities, and worry instead about more pressing matters.

And in reference to your condemnation of unions, let me begin by saying that is is oddly convenient (I'm trying to be generous with my word choice here) that you're focusing your argument on public sector unions. It's easy (and sometimes, justifiable) to criticize public sector unions. But private sector unions are important. They are beneficial for this nation. Do you know why private sector unions were created in the first place? To ensure and protect the rights of the working class. Your "incompetent employees are impossible to fire when unionized" argument is a straw man that some people love to trot out. The reality is this: the burden is on an employer to hire people who are not incompetent. I'm sorry that a portion of the workers whose rights are protected by unions are incompetent, but this is not a reason to dismantle unions.

Oh, and for everyone who was like: "PEOPLE DON'T WANT TO BE ON WELFARE?!?! HA HA HA HA, THEN YOU MUST NOT HAVE MET THE 5-75 PEOPLE I KNOW WHO ABUSE THE SYSTEM!" Sure, there are people out there who abuse the system. There are people in the world who abuse everything and anything. This does not mean that your anecdotal evidence is indicative of every single Welfare recipient.
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#50 User is offline   YoungBirdcall 

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 01:24 PM

View Postminecraftsmurf, on 06 May 2012 - 04:39 PM, said:

*pouts examining my empty cup of coffee* time to make more!

Ah, now that that is fixed…*sips coffee happily* let’s take a look at why unions promote negative ideals for America. :D

Unionization of government employees creates a powerful, permanent constituency for bigger government—one that is motivated, well-funded, and organized. Unlike businesses, governments face little incentive to hold down labor costs. Politicians and bureaucrats, however, do have an incentive to gain public approval in order to secure their positions. Many public-sector employees are employed as police, firefighters, and paramedics—public services that people genuinely want and need, while many others are administrative bureaucrats whose work is not as visible to the public. Thus, when the workers who provide those services are unionized, government officials have a strong incentive to give unions what they want, rather than risk incurring the public’s wrath through the disruption of those services because of strikes. As long as the public services continue to function, the public has little incentive to pay attention to the cost. This means that public-sector unions end up getting most of what they ask for, while taxpayers foot the bill. In time, of course, such profligacy catches up to local governments—but by the time they seek to curb costs, it often is too late to avert financial disaster.

Some states and municipalities especially are squeezed by the fact that, during the 1990’s boom years, they had even less incentive than usual to control their own labor costs because they collected increased tax revenues. Now that those boom times have come to an end, those years of profligacy threaten to create severe problems for the state and local government finances—and for the taxpayers.

*stretches setting empty coffee cup back down* Essential ‘problems’ with unions.

Unions cause job loss… let’s be honest. If an employer does not have the capability, when necessary, to cut hours, benefits, and other company costs he / she is required to lay individuals off to compensate for the difference in revenue. The goal in our economic “recession” is to create jobs not cut them?

Let’s take a look at General Motors! Union ‘contracts’ bankrupt companies! Sure, the executives at General Motors made some horrible decisions however… part of the reason for General Motors to file bankruptcy lies within the contract they had with the United Auto Workers Union. Union leaders are considerably obstinate in re-negotiating contracts when business conditions change.

Employers are required to be competitive in salaries and benefits if they wish to retain the ‘best’ employees, even in this considered ‘recession;’ and employees are required to do a great job in order to remain competitive on a though job market. However, unions take away this very important connection and turn employees and employers into constant adversaries, when their goals are usually very similar.

Unions make America uncompetitive. The artificially high salaries of union workers make American products uncompetitive overseas, and in America. As the world moves into a global economy, it is imperative for companies to be able to hire people at a somewhat competitive rate, especially to do repetitive work like assembly line work.

Unions foster incompetence. Once an individual is in a union, they become incredibly difficult to fire. Thus, incompetent workers are kept working when they should be fired… for the greater good of the company and the other workers
.

*beep beep* phone alarm is screaming at me!! I must go! This is good enough for now!! :D

Work Cited:

References:
1. Bellante D, Denholm D, Osorio I. Public-Sector Unionism is a Bad Deal for America. USA Today Magazine; Mar2010, Vol. 138 Issue 2778, p24-27, 4p.
2. Anner, Mark. 2009. “Two Logics of Labor Organizing in the Global Apparel Industry.” International studies Quarterly; Sep2009, Vol. 53 Issue 3, p545-570, 26p, 1 diagram, 4 charts, 1 graph.


I wonder how you can reconcile those claims with the fact that middle-class incomes have stagnated over the past decade and, as we know, unemployment and underemployment rates are distressingly high. Combine those facts with the fact that Private sector unionization as a share of employment has declined from more than 30% in the 1950s to only about 7% today, and we have ourselves a straw man of an argument!
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#51 User is offline   minecraftsmurf 

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 05:09 PM

View PostYoungBirdcall, on 11 May 2012 - 01:24 PM, said:

I wonder how you can reconcile those claims with the fact that middle-class incomes have stagnated over the past decade and, as we know, unemployment and underemployment rates are distressingly high. Combine those facts with the fact that Private sector unionization as a share of employment has declined from more than 30% in the 1950s to only about 7% today, and we have ourselves a straw man of an argument!


Oh? A straw man? What, exactly is represented wrongly regarding the information I posted besides an effort to dodge confronting it? You mean when the "entire world" is in a recession, jobs will not be lost?! lol

#52 User is offline   Dark Stranger 

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 09:42 PM

I do like the argument about how "poor" everyone is. yes, I'm not rich nor am I making enough money to ya know, buy a house, rasie a family and still pay bills and what not. But I"m still much more well off then anyone outside of the US. I mean we are the only country where we can somehow make the argument that the "poor" is obese. I'd like the that tried around the world and see how that goes.
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#53 User is offline   YoungBirdcall 

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 10:28 AM

View Postminecraftsmurf, on 12 May 2012 - 05:09 PM, said:

Oh? A straw man? What, exactly is represented wrongly regarding the information I posted besides an effort to dodge confronting it? You mean when the "entire world" is in a recession, jobs will not be lost?! lol


I mean that, when you realize that private sector unions make up only 7% of private sector employment, it's probably time to stop blaming unions for our countries economic and fiscal problems.
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#54 User is offline   cactusmomma 

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 12:42 AM

First question: How many of you have relatives on cash benefits or food stamps?

Secondly: How many of you know the requirements to receive food stamp benefits in your state and in the same vein, keep them?

Thirdly: Do you know the reason people are on government assistance?

What I know from first-hand experiences:
Third: Simple. Life happens. Not everyone can afford food from their $8.50 an hour job. Their jobs laid them off due to the economy or downsizing.. sometimes the tips that saddle up their $2.16 waitressing wage have been short.. or they only get 15 hours a week at work.. they may have been in an accident that prevents them from working.. they have been born with a disability and their SSI doesn't quite cover enough. It can happen to anyone.. your own parents may have been on them at some point.

Second: Here in Indiana, all finances are accounted for: Copies of bank accounts are taken, all assets.. cars, houses, retirement funds, child support, etcetc.. all earning are accounted into the budget.. if a person makes $110 a month, a family of three takes home around $500 in food stamps.. a person makes $600 a month, the family of 3 will take home around $97. Regardless of any bills that need to be paid, the amount is static. For medicaid, adults cannot qualify if their entire family wages is over (I believe) around $108 a month.. if their minor kids are on disability, it all counts towards their final funds. For children, they have state caseworkers that call up every 3 weeks to make sure the kids are getting their checkups and visits taken care of, asking about their wellness and literally taking over their health profiles (the calls take a minimum of 30 minutes each time. Really annoying.. though, my daughter's caseworker is freaking adorable.) Every 3 months, the cases are pulled in for review. If even one dollar isn't accounted for or if something is entered into the computers wrongly (Happens way more than it should..), a person can lose their benefits. Food stamps here can buy food.. it cannot buy toiletry goods, none of the funds can be drawn out as cash, it cannot buy alcohol, pet food, or smokes. For those people saying 'oh, they should only be allowed to buy healthy foods!' ...consider how expensive natural and healthy foods can be and how expensive it can be to make an entire meal. For those saying 'well, these people buy the more expensive brands..' ...well then, that's their fault and they will have to deal with ramen at the end of the month. Once it's gone, it's gone. So what if the people buy some candy or chips? They're human too. Take a household that has $20 for the next 2 weeks, which NEEDS to be used for gas? What if their kid is having a birthday? What if the people who receive stamps have company coming and would like to offer something for their guests to nibble on and don't want them to know that they're on hard times? What about the women that get horrible sugar cravings during their pms days and chocolate is the only way to save her partner's sanity and life?

First: Using some examples of people I know and have met during the years I was a cashier in a grocery store and from my doctors' offices..
- Woman in her 40's on medicaid. She received a letter saying she was going to be cut off of it because she hadn't been able to get to her neurologist appointment due to car problems. She is recovering from 2 brain tumors and works part-time.

- Family of 5, the father works full time, the mother is disabled. We have a type of insurance here called the Healthy Indiana Plan.. it's like medicaid, but the adults pay into it monthly at an extremely discounted rate. It only covers medical, no vision/dental. The adults' cases were tied to their food stamp case. HIP put in that the father quit a job he never had, which triggered a sanction on their food stamps. The mother and father had to share their budget amount, choosing not to sacrifice the quality of food/nutrition their kids were getting. Both parents were malnourished for almost 6 months before the state did anything about it.

- Legally blind woman.. usually gets around $120 a month for food.. her disability was entered into their computers incorrectly and her benefits were dropped to $18 for that month. She couldn't get the rest of the money for that month since she had received something. Thankfully, everything was corrected the next month.

- 35-year-old woman, met her when she was about to have a hearing for her HIP account.. they cancelled it because she was short by 14 cents.


All-in-all, I see drug testing as necessary if there is probable cause. Not everyone on welfare is a lazy deviant. They need to use that money to fix the system in place before pulling in another clustertrash.

#55 User is offline   YoungBirdcall 

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 12:27 PM

View PostYoungBirdcall, on 14 May 2012 - 10:28 AM, said:

I mean that, when you realize that private sector unions make up only 7% of private sector employment, it's probably time to stop blaming unions for our country's economic and fiscal problems.


Edited for grammar.

This post has been edited by YoungBirdcall: 16 May 2012 - 12:27 PM

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#56 User is offline   rondo 

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 12:31 PM

View PostYoungBirdcall, on 16 May 2012 - 12:27 PM, said:

Edited for grammar.


I won't blame unions for everything but they are a piece of a large pie. But overall, there is so much waste and not a whole lot of accountability.

This post has been edited by rondo: 16 May 2012 - 12:35 PM


#57 User is offline   The Fujoshi 

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 02:20 PM

cactusmomma said:



Claps Claps Claps

THIS. Oh Goodness this a 100% over.

This is what happens to the good people and the people who don't get screwed over? The people abusing the system!
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Posted 16 May 2012 - 04:35 PM

Not even so much those abusing the system.. good people get screwed over when the system is underfunded and overworked. We had to go to case meetings for my daughter's insurance (she is on medicaid due to having Cerebral Palsy) and the case worker had 3 large filing cabinets in her 6x8 cubicle, FULL and foot high stacks of more cases on top of those and even piled on her floor.

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 05:52 PM

View Postcactusmomma, on 16 May 2012 - 04:35 PM, said:

Not even so much those abusing the system.. good people get screwed over when the system is underfunded and overworked. We had to go to case meetings for my daughter's insurance (she is on medicaid due to having Cerebral Palsy) and the case worker had 3 large filing cabinets in her 6x8 cubicle, FULL and foot high stacks of more cases on top of those and even piled on her floor.


Same thing happened with my son's SSI. It took about....a good year or longer before he was finally put on and we had to re file it because someone messed up at the office.

EDIT: The lady in question had several cases just like you ma'am.

I sadly know a lot of people who abuse the system so it kind of annoys me when people don't realize how many good people are pushed under while those people get benefits and continue to get benefits and/or play.

Like it amazes me on what people will tell you....I report a lot of people but because of the city (or because it's so common,) it seems like a moot point or they lump you together with those kind of people :/

This post has been edited by The Fujoshi: 16 May 2012 - 05:53 PM

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 07:06 PM

Less concerned about welfare in Georgia and more concerned about the laws Arizona is passing dealing with insurance, employment, and birth control coverage.
But on the subject, I don't mind this law. People have to be drug-tested to get most jobs these days, which would then (obviously) become their source of income. If welfare is your sole or one of your sources of income, then it's perfectly fair that you should be drug-tested as well.
As for it coming to Indiana....I'm sure it will. Indiana is a red state through and through.
Edit: For the record, I don't think everyone on welfare is a heroine-shooting deviant. I'm all for welfare, just as long as it's going towards people who need it for their family or for survival, not for their recreational habits. Not that the two are mututally exclusive, but you get my point. I hope.

This post has been edited by Kii: 16 May 2012 - 07:09 PM


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