[KirbyFanOne]

Kaay-chan, on 13 April 2012 - 02:45 AM, said:

Furthermore? You've probably never had to worry about going to your local game shop alone for fear of being hit on by the guys that frequent the place. Trust me, I'd love to be able to go to my local shop on my own, but the stories I've heard from my friends of their experiences, alone, are enough to keep me from ever feeling comfortable doing so.

The industry treats women like morons who don't know what they're doing. As such my evidence for these claims is this video.

It doesn't help that this is Gamestop doing this either. The fact that this was even filmed is pretty ridiculous in and of itself.

Scott, on 13 April 2012 - 08:26 AM, said:

Some of that sounds like how society is in general. Men are pushed and expected to be the pursuer in relationships matters, and often the term creepy is a label that get placed on them. Maybe the difference there is that the men in the gaming culture have a lot less opportunity with women, are more awkward, and are generally not as good at being social than the random person you meet on the street.The comments about being in a kitchen and the dumb b**** are certainly something that's part of that rude jerk guy culture though.

You're absolutely right here, conventional "nerd" hobbies are being more and more introduced to the female half today than they were back in say the 80's or 90's. This sexism stems from the fact that like most industries, game development is a heavily male dominated industry, and as such they follow what men like.

You can give people crap who buy party games for their Wii or who still play Pokemon (which is also getting very risque. Have you seen how short the female trainer's shorts are in Black and White? They go all the way to the summit of Mount Everest ffs.) but the people who very nice lady the most about how the industry has changed are the so-called hardcore demographic. I really wish I knew where it was but I saw an article about how it's time for the gaming industry to grow up and I agreed to within the last millimeter of space on the webpage.

Nerd fandom isn't strictly a boys club anymore, and we have to remember that while yes there are some reasonably attractive girls go to these cons, treating them as eye candy isn't really the best way to see them be creative or enjoy themselves in your company, and that's what we really want to see.


Also in regards to the sandwich comments, why wouldn't people ask me to do it? I'd make some of the best damn sandwiches they've ever had. Stupid ding-dongs.

[jsieczkar]

Video games are far and away the worst of the pack when it comes to sexism. I think that with other types of hobbies there is more fan contact with each other. Video games have three "issues" going for it: People get "Tuff" when they can hide behind a screen and a fake name, it is competitive, and the general fallow the "cool" person culture that exists. If people treated people like they do in video games with board games or LARP they would be met with a very different response when they have to do it in person instead of at a keyboard. As is said a keyboard makes some people turn into Thor in their brains.

[The Fujoshi]

Kaay-chan, on 13 April 2012 - 02:45 AM, said:

*deep breath*

Okay, great. Congratulations. You play games and watch anime to relax from busting your butt. So do I. Except, you don't have to deal with the sexism. For you, the most annoying thing is the complaining. For me, nothing ruins a lovely session of relieving stress and venting frustration at the expense of the lives of some pixels quite like sexist comments. Or getting hit on in what can sometimes be incredibly creepy ways. Being told by random strangers that you're hot, or sexy, or that you should get married, is not an enjoyable experience. Being called a dumb b**** is also not fun. And being told to get in the kitchen and to go make a sandwich is only funny when it's said by a close friend who knows that I know that they're joking (they also know that if I go to the kitchen to make a sandwich, it's so I can eat it in front of them with a smile on my face).

Furthermore? You've probably never had to worry about going to your local game shop alone for fear of being hit on by the guys that frequent the place. Trust me, I'd love to be able to go to my local shop on my own, but the stories I've heard from my friends of their experiences, alone, are enough to keep me from ever feeling comfortable doing so.

THIS


The main reason why I stopped playing fighting games was because of this. I would deal with this or being considered a "weaksauce," because I was a girl and apparently girls don't like Arcane hearts or Blazblue.

Or the other side: "OMG A girl likes this?! Can we hook up? (if you wasn't ugly/I already have a gf?) or "AWESOME a girl playing this."

Both are amusing to me.

[Kaay-chan]

XenoBlade, on 13 April 2012 - 11:02 AM, said:

I agree with both kaaychan and dark stranger at points. What id like to add there is an inverse. Not sexism, but stereotyping. A guy commented on the kotaku article an brought up a point, guys have to deal "nerd basement dweller" comments. Now im not saying sexism isn't an issue, and that stereotypical comments are a great equalizer, but there are crap flung at both genders.

Wanted to add, I dunno how often guys hit on you, but also as Scott said, it's how nature works. Are they being respectful? Then years of socialization is to blame, but if its whistles and obvious "hey girl, let me holla at ya" then I see the problem. Seeing a girl interested in games (coming from a society where other girls look down at it) some might try to jump at it. Is it annoying to you? Maybe, but how are they suppose to know. Yeah you want to go and be left alone, but as long as it is respectful, its not hurtful. (convince other girls to be the pursuer and it might calm down. Lol we know that won't happen. Btw that was a joke before someone gets butthurt. Lol)

Edit: okay it is disrespectful, yeah most what I said was moot. Tho to those who do have respectful ones, what I said applies.

I should preface my point by pointing out that while some of the people who frequent the local game shop are high school students and people from my and the other local college in the area, there are others where I'm not entirely sure if they're in their mid-late twenties or early thirties, and the girls in my group of friends range from 18-23, assuming we don't have any 17-year-olds among the freshmen.

[Visadin the insane]

jsieczkar, on 13 April 2012 - 07:11 PM, said:

Video games are far and away the worst of the pack when it comes to sexism. I think that with other types of hobbies there is more fan contact with each other. Video games have three "issues" going for it: People get "Tuff" when they can hide behind a screen and a fake name, it is competitive, and the general fallow the "cool" person culture that exists. If people treated people like they do in video games with board games or LARP they would be met with a very different response when they have to do it in person instead of at a keyboard. As is said a keyboard makes some people turn into Thor in their brains.

I can agree with this, and this is mostly in a old penny arcade comic that is petty mush "man + annoynius =i nternet jerk", when i am at hobby stores people are very nice, when we disagree we respect others, girls are never hit on and i play with one in a group i am in, there is no one putting moves on her or anything like that. most of that is imo playing with people face to face.

video gaming is where everything goes wrong, if your playing local face to face it may be ok, fighting games may be a little trash talking but fighting games seem to be more competive. but when the game is online, a man will lose any sence of respect for anyone and go balls out retarded, maybe i can see it going on only in games where we play ageinst each other, like COD or team fortress 2, but no it's in co-op games, i had people rage at each other in L4D and that is4 player co-op. rage quiting and flaming in a wow raid is really is a way of life, and it just goes on.

and you really think this issue may be women exclusive, it not, i seen people judge others gaming skills out of race, age and Sexual orientation. outside of sexist remarks, i seen people raging over a kid in vent becuase he is a kid, slaming a guy being called bad for being a old man, and the legion apan legion of remarks and trash talking with the word "gay" or the word that sounds like "tag".

honestly i only see people remarking that gamers only hate on women, it not just you, trust me.

EDIT: oh i forgot making fun of a pursons handdicap, let it be a physical or mental illness, like in wow the ever so famus line of "hunttard".

the point is that i do agree sexist exist in gaming, but it not women that get the hate, gaming is mianly a strightwhite male with zero health issues it seem like.

This post has been edited by Visadin the insane: 14 April 2012 - 12:16 AM

[XenoBlade]

Kaay-chan, on 13 April 2012 - 10:52 PM, said:

I should preface my point by pointing out that while some of the people who frequent the local game shop are high school students and people from my and the other local college in the area, there are others where I'm not entirely sure if they're in their mid-late twenties or early thirties, and the girls in my group of friends range from 18-23, assuming we don't have any 17-year-olds among the freshmen.

That being said clears a lot up. (tho them being high schoolers, id would kinda expect that behaviors. What high schooler (guy) doesn't act immature around girls? Lol dunno if Id chalk it up to them being in the videogaming subculture, or them just being high school kids. Not justifying it in anyway, but I just expect a level of debauchery from high school kids.

[Steam_Loli216]

I'm going to play my "I'm in the military card" again, so bear with me:
I look around, and what do I see... Men. I'm surrounded by men. the three rooms around me in my room are occupied by men. (at any given moment, you can hear them screaming on Xbox live... oh the joy)
One of the things I hear the most is "keep your head up, you're competing with men for rank."
what, exactly, does that mean?? I've out performed almost every male I've been in training with.
I can beat my brother in Halo and Battlefront.
I'm a better driver than ALL of my male friends. (had to throw that in)
THE PENIS MEANS NOTHING.

Granted, I do feel a little out numbered when I go to the gaming center on base to relax, and it's all a bunch of dudes staring at me...
I go there wearing sweats, no make up and my engagement ring and I still get hit on, sometimes a little explicitly.
*sigh*
back to LoZ.

[Kaay-chan]

XenoBlade, on 14 April 2012 - 08:37 AM, said:

That being said clears a lot up. (tho them being high schoolers, id would kinda expect that behaviors. What high schooler (guy) doesn't act immature around girls? Lol dunno if Id chalk it up to them being in the videogaming subculture, or them just being high school kids. Not justifying it in anyway, but I just expect a level of debauchery from high school kids.

I'm less concerned with the high schoolers and more concerned with the other guys. You can't tell if they're in their late 20s are early thirties (if not older), and their hitting on girls who could be anywhere from 17 to 23. Forgive me if I find that a tad worrisome. Because this is how I see it: high school guys are hormonal and in high school, but they also, on some level, at least, feel that they have their whole lives ahead of them. My personal opinion: if a highschool guy is hitting on a college girl, it's funny, and charming (in a "aw, that's cute. Sorry, I'm not interested, but good luck!" sort of way). Older nerdy guys? Especially ones who still have never been able to find a girlfriend? They don't have that same "aw, I have time" mentality. They're past the point where they can hope that maybe they'll find a girlfriend in college, or when they enter the workforce, or whatever. And so here they are, hanging out at the local game shop with some friends, probably playing magic, when a wild Pretty Girl From The Local College appears! So he starts flirting with this girl, who might, potentially, be ten or more years his junior. THOSE are the "nerdy guys who hit on pretty nerd girls" who worry me.

Along those lines, when guys hit on me on MMOS, my first response is usually this: "Really, dude? For all you know I'm some 50-year-old fat guy living in his mothers basement, wearing only his underwear and surrounded by nothing but empty pizza boxes and porn mags. =/" (For the record: I'm not.)

[XenoBlade]

Kaay-chan, on 15 April 2012 - 03:15 AM, said:

I'm less concerned with the high schoolers and more concerned with the other guys. You can't tell if they're in their late 20s are early thirties (if not older), and their hitting on girls who could be anywhere from 17 to 23. Forgive me if I find that a tad worrisome. Because this is how I see it: high school guys are hormonal and in high school, but they also, on some level, at least, feel that they have their whole lives ahead of them. My personal opinion: if a highschool guy is hitting on a college girl, it's funny, and charming (in a "aw, that's cute. Sorry, I'm not interested, but good luck!" sort of way). Older nerdy guys? Especially ones who still have never been able to find a girlfriend? They don't have that same "aw, I have time" mentality. They're past the point where they can hope that maybe they'll find a girlfriend in college, or when they enter the workforce, or whatever. And so here they are, hanging out at the local game shop with some friends, probably playing magic, when a wild Pretty Girl From The Local College appears! So he starts flirting with this girl, who might, potentially, be ten or more years his junior. THOSE are the "nerdy guys who hit on pretty nerd girls" who worry me.

Along those lines, when guys hit on me on MMOS, my first response is usually this: "Really, dude? For all you know I'm some 50-year-old fat guy living in his mothers basement, wearing only his underwear and surrounded by nothing but empty pizza boxes and porn mags. =/" (For the record: I'm not.)

*facepalms self* I dunno how I keep missing your main points. I reread and saw that. Sorry I keep doing that, it is rather embarrassing. But I can understand that fear. That is creepy, but desperation makes you do things. And with them not having much experience, they won't know how to do it, and it'll be creepy. and it is possible they dont know the age either, tho it,is somewhat easy to tell if someone is younger. Even after all that, I dunno still if that is male nerd privilege, just really desperate folk. Heck, that runs on both sides with the biological clock women have. But it decently is annoying, I know. Definitely won't take the creepy and weird factor, tho I do feel a level of pity for those guys. Im quite sure they tried legit age when they were younger, but them being geeks and nerds got em a swift no. that and nerdy guys really do get a lot,of flak. (disclaimer again, not justifying them, not one bit) at my Gamestop it isnt like this, heck ive seen the opposite.

[XenoBlade]

Bah had to make new post. Phone likes to close my browser. Lol anywho its not girls hitting on guys, but treating them like nerds. Worst time ive seen is when this decently attractive worker was being nice and (for jobs sake) and got onto a small convo about wow with a guy (obviously nerdy) and he got a little windy and uber nerdy, and as soon he left, she made nasty faces, and started to make jokes about him to employees and customers who seen him. Pretty uncalled for. Granted, it's not so strong, but I felt that was messed up, he wad just excited bout his game, and he didnt realize it was "im trying to get you to buy crap" talk. But anywho, I actually never seen anyone hitting on females. Last time I was in Gamestop, it was all female. Lol err staffed I mean. Lol then again, its more "Madden types" then nerds who go there. "lol st. Louis"

And agreed, thats lame. Who hits on an anonymous face? I can't really say anything bout that. Its either they try to hit on you, or whatever you want to call it since its can be barely called that since it seems so random, or when they know you are a female, they put you on a pedestal. Lol "man I suck at this game. (its like my 5th time playing)" "oh no no no, I didnt protect you enough. You did go I sucked (500 hundred games, had a 50 and 5 kill death ratio)" (heard from an actual LoL game from a friend.)

[Shaherah]

Great article. I agree with just about every point he made in the article. Especially how geek men coddle geek women and put them on a pedestal and are overly nice to them, treating them like geek goddesses. Ive even seen it here on forums and in ACen Tinychat. It's pretty pathetic and makes me realize exactly why most of these 20 - 30 yr old geeks that hit these cons are still VIRGINS.

I also agree with women being sexual eye candy in geek entertainment. Not that I am complaining, as I'm a proud member of the GLBT community and love a sexy female figure and outfit just as much as any straight male. But I must say, it makes it difficult for most of us conservative type females to choose someone to cosplay! I crossplay most of the time simply because my fave characters are dressed like promiscuous women. I still love them tho I just can't dress like them in public places...or many other female characters that reason.

Nice article. Not saying that geekdom needs a complete overhaul or anything, just that I understand what the author is trying to convey; been noticing it for a long time, just glad that some men actually notice it too.

[Scott]

I do completely agree that in some situations flirting or hitting on someone is off limits and reflects on that extreme geek (or maybe macho) mentality we are discussing here. In a game, randomly on the Internet, or other similar situations where people are not physically in the same place is a big no-no. Saying rude or hateful things based on gender (or otherwise) is also a big no-no and fits with what the original article was talking about.

However, I'm not sure I see how age is a factor when people look past 18. Does that mean I have to start asking for a date of birth before commenting that a woman's eyes look amazing or something? That being said, I'm seeing something else too.
Here is an example: My sister literally considers 90% of adult men as creepy. The real truth there is that she has really specific desires and very high standards in a man. She labels all of the others ones who attempt to talk or flirt with her as creepy. Most recently it was at these (social) religious small-groups. She mentioned it to me and thought that these men shouldn't try to get dates or flirt at these social gatherings. I personally though it was natural and pretty expected when single people of legal age interact.

Anyways back on the main topic,

Shaherah mentioned that geek men frequently treat geek woman like goddesses is a good point. That's on the flip side of the coin of the ones who act derogatory and hateful when women try to get into their machismo filled hobby (gaming, car tuning scene, etc). I think these are two separate personality types, or possibly some of the geeks who put women on pedestals start developing misogynist tendencies and hatefully lash out on the Internet with cursing and negative gender highlighting because they have some anonymity.

So the question that comes up with that is how would things change if the desperation geeks cooled down a bit? Would we see a change in the content so that there are more realistic portrayals of women in Anime/games? I for one an not ashamed to admit I liked the anime Angelic Layer by Clamp.

Edit: Check out this article on Kotaku (somewhat not safe for work, skimpy Nigri cosplayer photo). Thoughts?

This post has been edited by Scott: 15 April 2012 - 06:09 PM

[Kaay-chan]

Okay, here's the thing, and this extends far beyond geek culture, but geeky guys tend to be really guilty of this. It's okay for a guy to be kinda chivalrous and be nice to girls, and all that, but please, please, please, PLEASE don't treat them like they aren't capable of taking care of themselves/ figuring out how to do certain things for themselves/ etc. etc. We are NOT helpless princesses. Most girls who do act like helpless little princesses are probably doing it to manipulate guys (I sometimes joke that if I ever got into magic, I'd just hope around from shop to shop pretending to be a "helpless little noob" so guys would give me free cards, but I would never actually do it. I don't think...) You need realize that most nerd girls (real ones who actually play video games/ read comics or manga/ watch anime/ other nerdy things and aren't just using it as a ploy to manipulate boys) know what they're doing, and if they don't, they at least know what questions to ask.

Maybe this is partially a complex for me because I'm 5'1 and a lot of my friends say I'm cute (size + personality, I guess), and sometimes I think some of my guy friends who don't know me so well think that's all there is to me.

Also, I'd like to apologize for my generalizations regarding older guys hitting on college girls in game shops: I don't actually KNOW whether they've never had girlfriends or not, but either way it just seems odd to me that they would feel the need to hit on college students who are ambiguously 17-22-ish. (I know most people start college at 18, but I know plenty of people who started at 17, either because they skipped a grade or they come from someplace where the cut-off date for starting school was weird.)

And Scott, "legal" doesn't necessarily mean it's okay. Think about it this way: Put older-looking high school girls and college-aged girls in a room together; are you honestly going to be able to tell me that you can tell the difference? I'm not against age gaps; there's an 8 year age gap with my parents (but they also met in a bar, were introduced by friends, and were dating/ living together for 7 years before they got married). It's when it gets to that ambiguously 10-year area that I start getting uncomfortable, especially when the girl in question is under 20.

[Yandere Emi]

While chivalry isn't necessarily a bad thing (and is sort of common with a subset of nerd boys), I have noticed that it seems to make men feel entitled to women. Such as this whole "Friend Zone" trend right now. It kind of frustrates me that boys assume that just because they treat a woman "better" than the guy that she's with (or even if she's single) that they SHOULD be the one hooking up with her and that they are somehow wronged because the woman chooses NOT to sleep with/date them. Under no circumstances is any guy ever entitled to sex/a date just by being a nice guy. :/ Sorry.

[XenoBlade]

friendzone is a whole nother can of beans. Lol Chivalry isn't a bad thing, but I can say some girls take it too far. Yes I'll pay,and stuff, but don't expect it like law, let me offer and feel like it's my choice. Had a relationship like that. Girl would just walk away when it came to ordering and just completely expect me to pay for everything. Did not like that at all. Im not a bank. Which brings up another issue, why don't lady folk try to insist more on paying and being more aggressive? (I know it's slowly happening) I think that would go towards equality points. Cuz it would definitely get rid of "the weak"so I must be chivalrous viewpoint. (at least in theory)

to get back to the friendzone, saying all the folk who complain about think they are entitled is making a harsh generalization. Thats the normal comebacks of women who are tired of the jokes. There are some who do feel that way, but a lot is lack of of understanding why. I mean look at every Disney movie. Its always a nice guy winning the girl. Gaston is turned down for crying out loud. Lol but in real life Belle would go for Gaston. Lol Then when the completely unseen plot twist of them cheating happens, (now explain this to me...the part coming up) goes to her friendzone friend, and after hating men (cuz it's all of our fault at that time.) (also as I said not all feel entitled not all girls do this) but why oh why does the line "I wish I had a guy like you" or "why can't guys be more like you?" Exist? What's up with that? Not only is that incredibly insulting, doesn't that seem slightly insinuating? A lot of ladies get angry when guys don't want to be friends after they ask them out. they dont want to get trampled on emotionally.

All in all the friendzone fad does need to end, however the phrase "all the good guys are taken or gay does too" not only is that a beyond idiotic phrase (and wrong) that is kinda insulting. Mutual slaying of fad and quote? Lol

(disclaimer: not that the friendzone bothers me a lot, im just annoyed of the complaints against it. It's a legitimate frustration, but some just take it way too far. I agree with that much)

Also just one thing with age , the older people get, the less it matters. Studied show guys go younger and ladies go higher. Works out bout right since just about everyone I know does that. Tho being like 18 and being hit on by a 30 year old is creepy. "man Ioved my freshmen year in highschool" "I was just learning how to walk o.O"

This post has been edited by XenoBlade: 16 April 2012 - 07:55 AM

[XenoBlade]

Shaherah, on 15 April 2012 - 11:14 AM, said:

Great article. I agree with just about every point he made in the article. Especially how geek men coddle geek women and put them on a pedestal and are overly nice to them, treating them like geek goddesses. Ive even seen it here on forums and in ACen Tinychat. It's pretty pathetic and makes me realize exactly why most of these 20 - 30 yr old geeks that hit these cons are still VIRGINS.

I also agree with women being sexual eye candy in geek entertainment. Not that I am complaining, as I'm a proud member of the GLBT community and love a sexy female figure and outfit just as much as any straight male. But I must say, it makes it difficult for most of us conservative type females to choose someone to cosplay! I crossplay most of the time simply because my fave characters are dressed like promiscuous women. I still love them tho I just can't dress like them in public places...or many other female characters that reason.

Nice article. Not saying that geekdom needs a complete overhaul or anything, just that I understand what the author is trying to convey; been noticing it for a long time, just glad that some men actually notice it too.

Is it sad that I probably know the folks you are talking about? Lol been here for too long and ive seen the same too. tho I havent been in tinychat I dunno there, but im sute it is some of the same folk.

[Kaay-chan]

Ugh. Okay, so the frienzone thing is an entirely different rant all together, but since someone else brought it up, here you go.

Here's the thing about the friendzone: It's a myth. It doesn't exist. The Friendzone is a convenient excuse for guys who can't see why a girl they like would possibly pick another guy over them. It allows them to shift the blame, when the reality is, if a actually does say "gee, I like you too, but we're such good friends that I don't want to ruin it," it's because there's something else and she just doesn't want to hurt his feelings; maybe he smokes, or has bad hygiene habits, or has some other trait that the girl is able to tolerate in him as a friend but wouldn't be able to tolerate in a boyfriend. More proof that the friendzone is BS? There are plenty of girls, such as myself, who would never date someone they weren't friends with first (then again, I've never had a boyfriend, either, so go figure).

And if a girl does the usual friendzone line that I mentioned above and actually believes it, she's fooling herself as well as him.

[XenoBlade]

Kaay-chan, on 16 April 2012 - 12:16 PM, said:

Ugh. Okay, so the frienzone thing is an entirely different rant all together, but since someone else brought it up, here you go.

Here's the thing about the friendzone: It's a myth. It doesn't exist. The Friendzone is a convenient excuse for guys who can't see why a girl they like would possibly pick another guy over them. It allows them to shift the blame, when the reality is, if a actually does say "gee, I like you too, but we're such good friends that I don't want to ruin it," it's because there's something else and she just doesn't want to hurt his feelings; maybe he smokes, or has bad hygiene habits, or has some other trait that the girl is able to tolerate in him as a friend but wouldn't be able to tolerate in a boyfriend. More proof that the friendzone is BS? There are plenty of girls, such as myself, who would never date someone they weren't friends with first (then again, I've never had a boyfriend, either, so go figure).

And if a girl does the usual friendzone line that I mentioned above and actually believes it, she's fooling herself as well as him.

Isnt that, in essence, the friendzone? Keeping someone as a friend because of varying reasons? I believe you in not having a friendzone, but I can for sure say other girls have it. I think it just varies from person to person. the "theory" (ridiculous I know. Theories for stuff like this) there are two ladders. I only friend ladder, then something more ladder. You can be friends, but if you are on the just friends ladder, then the chances are extremely slim. It makes sense, it's perfectly logical.

[XenoBlade]

Sorry for typos, it is hard to correct em on the phone.

[YoungBirdcall]

Friendzone Theory for the layperson:

Premise 1: Men are never friends with women whom they would not consider dating (or at least sleeping with).

Premise 2: Women are sometimes friends with men whom they would not consider dating or sleeping with.

[Scott]

Kaay-chan, on 16 April 2012 - 04:48 AM, said:

And Scott, "legal" doesn't necessarily mean it's okay. Think about it this way: Put older-looking high school girls and college-aged girls in a room together; are you honestly going to be able to tell me that you can tell the difference? I'm not against age gaps; there's an 8 year age gap with my parents (but they also met in a bar, were introduced by friends, and were dating/ living together for 7 years before they got married). It's when it gets to that ambiguously 10-year area that I start getting uncomfortable, especially when the girl in question is under 20.

What is your solution to the problem you see? Aren't you agreeing with me that it's difficult to tell if a woman is safe to approach with your example? Obviously once emails or whatever were exchanged and details about how old a person really is happen, contact would be cut off or minimized.

I mentioned earlier that men are the ones usually expected to put themselves out there. It would be nice at times to be on the other side of the fence. I could avoid the potential of being called a creep behind my back or whatever else because they would be the ones taking the social risk instead of me.

Maybe it all comes down to somehow getting really good at properly assessing a situation... I have noticed that refinement in makeup choices/skills and clothing is actually a pretty good way to tell about how old a woman is (excluding the ones who don't care that much or put much effort into it).

That brings me back to the main topic here. Why is the awkward geek personality such a problem besides the aspects we talked about such as the hateful gender exclusion? People are the way that they are (not everyone is super social or well adjusted). Popular culture has tried to make the awkward (male) geek into something to be shunned and hated. I'm not saying it's wrong to dislike awkward geeky people, but rather just trying to add both sides to the discussion.

Yandere Emi, on 16 April 2012 - 05:58 AM, said:

It kind of frustrates me that boys assume that just because they treat a woman "better" than the guy that she's with (or even if she's single) that they SHOULD be the one hooking up with her and that they are somehow wronged because the woman chooses NOT to sleep with/date them. Under no circumstances is any guy ever entitled to sex/a date just by being a nice guy. :/ Sorry.

XenoBlade, on 16 April 2012 - 07:39 AM, said:

friendzone is a whole nother can of beans. Lol Chivalry isn't a bad thing, but I can say some girls take it too far.

to get back to the friendzone

Chivalry should be something done without expectation of being rewarded. It's so engrained into our society by the media with movies of the honorable virtuous warrior, but with the added distortion of a reward at the end. I think that's part of the problem. You can't really be virtuous when you have an ulterior motive. You also can't gain a person's respect when you don't respect yourself (allowing others to take extreme liberties with you). A man and a woman can be true friends, but both people need to have the same idea of how the relationship should be and to have mutual respect.

So I personally think that deception is the main issue in those extreme cases. The woman likes the attention yet sees something isn't right and only lets the relationship get so far. The jerk might be a jerk, but he is genuine (or attractive or whatever else). It's also possible she just doesn't have those feelings for the guy, but that's a simple one sided relationship.

[Kaay-chan]

Scott, on 16 April 2012 - 01:29 PM, said:

What is your solution to the problem you see? Aren't you agreeing with me that it's difficult to tell if a woman is safe to approach with your example? Obviously once emails or whatever were exchanged and details about how old a person really is happen, contact would be cut off or minimized.

I don't know about you, but I can tell the difference between a 17/18 year old girl and one who's in her mid-twenties. It's how they act and dress and how they hold themselves, as well as in the shapes of their faces. I'm saying that if you're in or near your twenties (let's say, 28 or older?), you probably shouldn't be hitting on a girl if you can't tell if she's out of high school yet or not.

[Naoya Toudou]

The friendzone while over used at times is indeed real and can be an enormous pain in the butt. I have seen it happen to a few of my well to do friends and it has happened to me in the past. ( a very strange turn of events is that she got the rotting end of the stick for it and got FZ herself. ) as Xenoblade mentioned its not about feeling entitled to to a woman or to some sort of "prize" its that you genuinely like someone and put the time and effort to show that you can be a great catch and that you want to be seen as boyfriend material. only to have them date another guy who in the long run treats them like crap ( this is not a generalization) and when they get treated like crap come crawling back to you wondering why men are jerks and why cant the men she date be more like you. Xeno is right, its insulting and in few cases its what turns men into the jerks who people loathe yet some women end up dating.

I dated this girl in highschool and things for going smoothly. she decided to break up with me, her excuse " We should just be friends besides theres this other guy i like that i think really likes me" ( WTH i liked you to! ) she dumped me and the next day she came back to me saying he told her that he had no interest in her like that. BOOM! i said "dont that suck" and left her stranded in her own frienzone. I got lucky and things backfired, but for a moment i knew what it was like and its unpleasant.

[Kaay-chan]

Okay, maybe I'm misunderstanding the whole friendzone thing. The way I understand it, it's when a guy asks a girl out, and she says "gee, I like you too, but we're such good friends that I don't want to ruin it, so let's just stay friends =D" or the guy somehow or another gets that impression.

My point is, when a girl says that, it's probably because there's something else about the guy that causes the girl to not be interested in dating him. It would be better if girls were more honest, and would say outright "you're a nice guy, but you're not my type/ you're not what I'm looking for in a boyfriend/ etc. etc.

In the mean time though, the guy thinks that the girl isn't interested in dating the guy because they're friends, so he's able to conveniently blame her for the fact that he's not dating her, when the reality is it's probably him. Maybe it's something as simple as she wants kids and he has mad it blatantly clear that he doesn't, or it could be something more personal like he has bad teeth or they have conflicting religions views or something.

TL;DR: The way I see it "Gee, I like you too, but we're such good friends that I don't want to ruin it by dating you," really means "Gee, you're a really nice guy, and we're really good friends, but I don't want to go out with you but I'm too nice/ too scared to tell you the real reason why I don't want to date you." =/

I hope what I'm trying to say makes sense. =/

[Wingy Baby]

Kaay-chan, on 18 April 2012 - 04:17 PM, said:

TL;DR: The way I see it "Gee, I like you too, but we're such good friends that I don't want to ruin it by dating you," really means "Gee, you're a really nice guy, and we're really good friends, but I don't want to go out with you but I'm too nice/ too scared to tell you the real reason why I don't want to date you." =/

Boom.

[XenoBlade]

Kaay-chan, on 18 April 2012 - 04:17 PM, said:

Okay, maybe I'm misunderstanding the whole friendzone thing. The way I understand it, it's when a guy asks a girl out, and she says "gee, I like you too, but we're such good friends that I don't want to ruin it, so let's just stay friends =D" or the guy somehow or another gets that impression.

My point is, when a girl says that, it's probably because there's something else about the guy that causes the girl to not be interested in dating him. It would be better if girls were more honest, and would say outright "you're a nice guy, but you're not my type/ you're not what I'm looking for in a boyfriend/ etc. etc.

In the mean time though, the guy thinks that the girl isn't interested in dating the guy because they're friends, so he's able to conveniently blame her for the fact that he's not dating her, when the reality is it's probably him. Maybe it's something as simple as she wants kids and he has mad it blatantly clear that he doesn't, or it could be something more personal like he has bad teeth or they have conflicting religions views or something.

TL;DR: The way I see it "Gee, I like you too, but we're such good friends that I don't want to ruin it by dating you," really means "Gee, you're a really nice guy, and we're really good friends, but I don't want to go out with you but I'm too nice/ too scared to tell you the real reason why I don't want to date you." =/

I hope what I'm trying to say makes sense. =/

I agree (for the most part) that's the truth of the matter. (Which of course goes for both genders as the "friendzone" isn't a male exclusive thing.

Especially agree with the just being flat out honest. Most girls just think how they would like to be told, and think saying "oh you are just too good a friend" and other stuff is being nice, tho most guys would rather hear the truth. The Friendzone jokes will still exist, but it'll be a lil easier then getting a B.S. answer. And while the joke is for guys just friendzoning for looks is just a generalization and joke. A few times I have denied a relationship because us other varying reasons and not just "wow, she is pretty ugly". Just felt that should be added. lol

This post has been edited by XenoBlade: 18 April 2012 - 05:10 PM

[vipstancecom]

XenoBlade, on 18 April 2012 - 05:07 PM, said:

I agree (for the most part) that's the truth of the matter. (Which of course goes for both genders as the "friendzone" isn't a male exclusive thing.

Especially agree with the just being flat out honest. Most girls just think how they would like to be told, and think saying "oh you are just too good a friend" and other stuff is being nice, tho most guys would rather hear the truth. The Friendzone jokes will still exist, but it'll be a lil easier then getting a B.S. answer. And while the joke is for guys just friendzoning for looks is just a generalization and joke. A few times I have denied a relationship because us other varying reasons and not just "wow, she is pretty ugly". Just felt that should be added. lol

If you act like a friend or are not viewed as "boyfriend/girlfriend material," you're thrown into the friend zone. It's just the way it is. It could be based on your looks, actions, or the way you display yourself to him/her. You DO have control of this to a good extent! You're just going to have to figure out what it is exactly. My word of advice, don't ask the opposite sex for their advice as they usually don't even know why they decided that. Trial & Error!

[SprinklePuff]

Why do guys always whine and moan about how girls don't go for them because women only like "jerks?" Seriously, guys? Lets be honest here. It's most likely because you're pursuing the female jerk due to her gorgeous looks and huge rack, instead of the NICE GIRL, who may be madly in love with you, but doesn't have much going for her in the looks department.

I am just so tired of these men crying for sympathy because they're SO nice and NO one wants them. It's baloney, if they're honestly that nice, of course. Widen your horizons, and you'll find there are many women who want you. They just don't look like Megan Fox. Some of these nice guys need to take a nice hard look at what it is they really want - a nice girl, or a trophy woman.

Also, merely being nice doesn't automatically mean you deserve a sexy, loving girlfriend, just like it doesn't mean you deserve to be rich, famous, etc.

I find geeky men are especially guilty of this. And again, no matter how unnattractive they are, they seem to think that they still deserve a supermodel girlfriend because that's what the media presents them with - the nerd always gets the hot girl! It happened in Transformers, so it has to be true! Why should I have to settle for less?

This post has been edited by SprinklePuff: 18 April 2012 - 06:19 PM

[XenoBlade]

vipstancecom, on 18 April 2012 - 06:00 PM, said:

If you act like a friend or are not viewed as "boyfriend/girlfriend material," you're thrown into the friend zone. It's just the way it is. It could be based on your looks, actions, or the way you display yourself to him/her. You DO have control of this to a good extent! You're just going to have to figure out what it is exactly. My word of advice, don't ask the opposite sex for their advice as they usually don't even know why they decided that. Trial & Error!

Pretty much what I think

SprinklePuff, on 18 April 2012 - 06:17 PM, said:

Why do guys always whine and moan about how girls don't go for them because women only like "jerks?" Seriously, guys? Lets be honest here. It's most likely because you're pursuing the female jerk due to her gorgeous looks and huge rack, instead of the NICE GIRL, who may be madly in love with you, but doesn't have much going for her in the looks department.

I am just so tired of these men crying for sympathy because they're SO nice and NO one wants them. It's baloney, if they're honestly that nice, of course. Widen your horizons, and you'll find there are many women who want you. They just don't look like Megan Fox. Some of these nice guys need to take a nice hard look at what it is they really want - a nice girl, or a trophy woman.

Also, merely being nice doesn't automatically mean you deserve a sexy, loving girlfriend, just like it doesn't mean you deserve to be rich, famous, etc.

I find geeky men are especially guilty of this. And again, no matter how unnattractive they are, they seem to think that they still deserve a supermodel girlfriend because that's what the media presents them with - the nerd always gets the hot girl! It happened in Transformers, so it has to be true! Why should I have to settle for less?

Ive discussed this earlier, but complaining bout the complaining is starting to get jarring. yeah its annoying, but why not let em complain? maybe they'll learn that helps nothing, and maybe theyll change their views. Ill just stop there.

[YoungBirdcall]

I think this sums up how I feel about the whole "friend zone" business:

http://xkcd.com/513/