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The Hentai's Guide to Puella Magi An adult mahou shoujo panel

#61 User is offline   linlindesu 

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 06:29 PM

View PostNaoya Toudou, on 05 April 2012 - 06:21 PM, said:

sorry i just gotta make one snarky remark -.- and im sure other guys will agree with me
i grew up since i was in grade school thinking sailor moon is freaking hot! (specially when she transforms) and if that has to change cause im a bit older and she never changed her age well then

Posted Image

and yes it is OtakuangelID, yes it is. ill say for the millionth time its a very foggy and unclear line whats legal and what isnt :/

also considering Tuxedo Mask was 19, that's statutory rape in some states. :x
You have to remember, I'm not on a side, I just found it odd acen took the panel with the various issues that have occurred in the past couple years.

edit : said "out" not "odd"

This post has been edited by linlindesu: 05 April 2012 - 06:31 PM

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#62 User is offline   XenoBlade 

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 06:35 PM

Must admit this is entertaining to read. No interest in this kinda stuff, but its interesting seeing people's viewpoints.

Tho I must admit, I can't say im not surprised this panel got approved, since this is flirting with the legal tango.
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#63 User is offline   Zerox20 

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 07:57 PM

View PostXenoBlade, on 05 April 2012 - 06:35 PM, said:

Must admit this is entertaining to read. No interest in this kinda stuff, but its interesting seeing people's viewpoints.

Tho I must admit, I can't say im not surprised this panel got approved, since this is flirting with the legal tango.


We by no means approve panels just to "flirt" with the law/legal issues. We do not approve panels just to make a statement. We look at EVERY single Panel and review the outlines etc as everybody knows. I cannot comment on internal discussions on this Panel at this time, but I just want to clear up this Panel was not approved just for the sake of skirting the line of legality or the law.

I do not mind the discussion going on here either as it is good discussion at the moment as well. We just ask that people do not make assumptions about our approval of this panel and something that ACen is trying to "stand" for or anything of that nature.
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#64 User is offline   SunnyJ 

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 08:02 PM

linlindesu, I have yet to change the real content of my panel, and don't really plan on it, unless Acen specifically requests. I've already done it once, though, I will admit the effort I put into it wasn't up to what I consider Acen standards, and am, therefore, improving it. The original intent of this panel is to transverse the road of what it takes for magical animes to get their adult spinoffs. The reason it is related to Madoka is purely the end result I have for the panel (aka. what I would lulzingly call the epitome of honor for any anime). It's more of a guide from your basic magical girl/woman/female/<cough>in some cases a cross dressing zombie</cough> to that end.

Legally, yes, the road is rocky, and I, thanks to your input, will add some of that as a word of warning for people to consider when looking for their adult parodies. Yes, there are battles that will, going forward here in America, be fought eventually in regards to what is "legal" and what "is not".

It does seem, though, that we have a clashing of opinions, and as such, I understand that you may be offended. What some people see as something "funny" or "art" or "simple entertainment" others may not, and yet others, who are already predisposed, may take it too far.

This post has been edited by SunnyJ: 05 April 2012 - 08:05 PM


#65 User is offline   linlindesu 

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 08:19 PM

View PostZerox20, on 05 April 2012 - 07:57 PM, said:

We by no means approve panels just to "flirt" with the law/legal issues. We do not approve panels just to make a statement. We look at EVERY single Panel and review the outlines etc as everybody knows. I cannot comment on internal discussions on this Panel at this time, but I just want to clear up this Panel was not approved just for the sake of skirting the line of legality or the law.

I do not mind the discussion going on here either as it is good discussion at the moment as well. We just ask that people do not make assumptions about our approval of this panel and something that ACen is trying to "stand" for or anything of that nature.

I don't think he was. He was saying he was surprised because it is flirting with legal issues. Its ok. I had to read it twice before I made that realization.
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#66 User is offline   XenoBlade 

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 08:46 PM

View PostZerox20, on 05 April 2012 - 07:57 PM, said:

We by no means approve panels just to "flirt" with the law/legal issues. We do not approve panels just to make a statement. We look at EVERY single Panel and review the outlines etc as everybody knows. I cannot comment on internal discussions on this Panel at this time, but I just want to clear up this Panel was not approved just for the sake of skirting the line of legality or the law.

I do not mind the discussion going on here either as it is good discussion at the moment as well. We just ask that people do not make assumptions about our approval of this panel and something that ACen is trying to "stand" for or anything of that nature.


Whoa whoa, yeah defintely wasn't saying that. Sorry, I did word that kinda funny. I meant exactly what Liny said. Just surprised that this will be a panel at acen.
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#67 User is offline   Zerox20 

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 08:47 PM

View Postlinlindesu, on 05 April 2012 - 08:19 PM, said:

I don't think he was. He was saying he was surprised because it is flirting with legal issues. Its ok. I had to read it twice before I made that realization.


Yep I doubt he wasn't. Just making sure everyone is on same page ^_^
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#68 User is offline   Krystal 

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 08:40 AM

The only thing that concerns me is that if Acen's own attendees aren't sure what this panel is, how will people OUTSIDE of the convention contsrue it? What if we get negative press from journelists?

" Anime Central, April 27th-29th is a convention with a wide array of entertainment! Shop in the dealers room, be awed by the beautiful costumes at the masquerade, or cozy up with that special someone at the loli porn panel! A loli is..."


I just feel that unless this panel is explained REEEAAALLLLY well in the schedule, this will be what those who want to show how different we are from "normal" people eat up. They would probably casually mention the panel with no explanation, and Acen would get brandished as pedophilic whackos.

I trust you guys know what you're doing, I just hope this panel doesn't get used out of context to speak badly for us.
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#69 User is offline   Naoya Toudou 

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 08:57 AM

thats calling out one panel out of the many others. thats also like going to the dealers booths and looking around specifically for the loli doujin and figures and other memorabilia. just to hate on them -.-

#70 User is offline   Krystal 

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 09:02 AM

Of course it is (actually some people DO specifically look for loli henai doujin because it is illegal) but I feel some would be all but happy to do that. So don't give them the chance. Explain the panel in the schedule well.

This post has been edited by Krystal: 06 April 2012 - 12:29 PM

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#71 User is offline   opimus.rm 

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 10:48 AM

View PostKrystal, on 06 April 2012 - 08:40 AM, said:

The only thing that concerns me is that if Acen's own attendees aren't sure what this panel is, how will people OUTSIDE of the convention contsrue it? What if we get negative press from journelists?

" Anime Central, April 27th-29th is a convention with a wide array of entertainment! Shop in the dealers room, be awed by the beautiful costumes at the masquerade, or cozy up with that special someone at the loli porn panel! A loli is..."


I just feel that unless this panel is explained REEEAAALLLLY well in the schedule, this will be what those who want to show how different we are from "normal" people eat up. They would probably casually mention the panel with no explanation, and Acen would get brandished as pedophilic whackos.

I trust you guys know what you're doing, I just hope this panel doesn't get used out of context to speak badly for us.

Here 's another panel the press can take out of context. The Friday night bondage panel" All Tied UP.

This post has been edited by opimus.rm: 06 April 2012 - 10:49 AM

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#72 User is offline   Krystal 

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 11:02 AM

Right...but I feel liking bondage is a little different than liking what could be considered cartoon child porn. For one, bondage is legal. For another, the panel is self-explanatory; people KNOW what bondage is. Finally, I wasn't talking about that panel.

All I'm saying is that THIS particular, specific panel COULD strike outsiders as pedophilic. Quite frankly, even if the bondage one WAS, though I'm not sure how, taken out of context, who cares? The FBI doesn't bang down the doors because two consenting adults have a pair of handcuffs in the bedroom.

Will it be stated in the schedule that all characters who show up in the panel will be drawn in a way that depicts them as over 18?

This post has been edited by Krystal: 06 April 2012 - 11:05 AM

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#73 User is offline   Naoya Toudou 

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 11:39 AM

View PostKrystal, on 06 April 2012 - 11:02 AM, said:


Will it be stated in the schedule that all characters who show up in the panel will be drawn in a way that depicts them as over 18?


no too sure about that however then we would have to say the same about all the hntai screenings that may go on late at night that take place in highschools. -.-

#74 User is offline   Krystal 

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 12:17 PM

And that's...bad?


And also, from the hentai I've seen (long story), when the girls are in a high school setting, they actually account for it in animation. Take for example, Bible Black. While the setting takes place at a school, the girls look and sound about 25, and have the proportions of older women.

Many new magical girl shows such as Madoka and Nanoha, have them looking about 7. So yeah, a disclaimer would be nice.
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#75 User is offline   Naoya Toudou 

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 01:22 PM

thats exactly the reasoning behind this topic being a very VERY grayed out area as i always say. yes they looked like they were 25 or some older age but they must have been infact 16-17 to just be in highschool. and there are some manga and anime out there where older women look like theyre 12. its a very confusing topic to debate over. -.-;

#76 User is offline   Krystal 

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 01:32 PM

It is a confusing topic, but perhaps one that is not to be publicly discussed whilst showing the questionable images on a projector? You can't have a panel where "maybe" it's kiddy porn, maybe it's not. You need to be damn sure that what you're showing is legal.
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#77 User is offline   SunnyJ 

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 02:01 PM

I totally understand the concern, and even before I posted here and created the initial version of my panel I took that into consideration. Further, the question is if you don't know the literal age of an anime character how do you tell? The thing is, most anime characters are drawn in a generic way and don't have wrinkles or other blemishes that you can typically use to tell the age of someone you're talking about. This is why I'm talking with other groups on this to see how they go about determining these types of things to give proper information to people, as it is, with the conflicts that have been brought forward, this is obviusly something I need to touch on as it seems to be almost more important than what I'm actually going for with the panel >_>

#78 User is offline   Naoya Toudou 

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 03:49 PM

View PostSunnyJ, on 06 April 2012 - 02:01 PM, said:

I totally understand the concern, and even before I posted here and created the initial version of my panel I took that into consideration. Further, the question is if you don't know the literal age of an anime character how do you tell? The thing is, most anime characters are drawn in a generic way and don't have wrinkles or other blemishes that you can typically use to tell the age of someone you're talking about. This is why I'm talking with other groups on this to see how they go about determining these types of things to give proper information to people, as it is, with the conflicts that have been brought forward, this is obviusly something I need to touch on as it seems to be almost more important than what I'm actually going for with the panel >_>



you do whatever it is you need to do for your panel to happen Sunny
its a great and very interesting theme i know youre going with lol
and it would be ashame if we didnt have a late night panel with this theme. im surprised we didnt have one sooner.

#79 User is offline   Zerox20 

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 04:21 PM

All panels will be in the program book and have full descriptions, this panel will be marked 18+ On the schedule and be carded at the door too.
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#80 User is offline   Naoya Toudou 

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 08:21 PM

good :)

#81 User is offline   linlindesu 

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 01:10 AM

So, is this panel still occurring after the "review" ?
Have any police/ lawyers been asked about legality of this?

Sunny, no offense despite this being very offensive, but the way you say things ... about the ages of characters... it is creepy.
Characters usually have an age about them. Breasts, even drawn, do not look the same at 20 that they did at 13. I don't need to go into details. If need be, ask any female over the age of 17 to explain the process of puberty.
how could you and panel programming not look deeper into this before deciding this was a good idea? I have yet to get an answer from staff nor yourself about the thought process of getting this approved.

I think many people ignored Krystal's point. This will affect how the outside world looks at the convention.
And I know we all think "being different makes us totez better" but let's be honest here, there's a difference between being considered strange and being considered potentially dangerous.

And there's also a world of difference between hyper sexualized hentai girls and Cardcaptor Sakura.
I used to cosplay hentai. I used to own loads of hentai. I've Raided FYE and the Dealer's Room on many occasions. Bible Black has a giant note on the cover saying all the women are 18+ Many other series do as well. They made damn sure there was no "gray" or "foggy" area. Don't go off showing Chibi Moon hentai trying to tell everyone there she was totally 18. yea, right. sure.
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#82 User is offline   Zerox20 

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 02:16 PM

As of this moment this Panel is still going to be at ACen 2012. We are going to be discussing everything presented here with the Panelist and ensure the concerns are met. The Panel will be revised to reflect these changes for the convention. Thank you everyone for your comments and concerns regarding it.
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#83 User is offline   Krystal 

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 03:34 PM

Good luck on your discussion and I'm sure everything will be fine.


This will be the last point I make on here unless directly replied to, but first off, let me apologize for sounding like a total B. Child abuse is a a very hot issue for me, so this probably strikes me more than any other panel subject.


To be brutally honest, the description given makes it sound like a kiddie porn creation workshop. So you like Madoka and Nanoha "that" way, but you know it's socially unacceptable. Well here's a way to attach a load of loopholes and small text so you can enjoy them while 'technically' not having child porn.

For the people that actually are attracted to children, if this is their way of not having to actually harm a child, so be it. But I don't think that Acen ought be condoning the process that a person undergoes to make hentai of a known-child character. Because at the end of it all, Nanoha IS 9. Madoka IS about 14. And no matter what you say this new context is, unless they are being drawn to look older than 18, that is who is in the hentai.


Like I said though, that's what it sounds like. Not what is definitely is. Just be careful, guys. I don't want this causing more trouble for Acen as a whole.
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Posted 12 April 2012 - 09:02 AM

I would find this to be too risky and a liability judging from past prosecution on child porn.
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Posted 12 April 2012 - 09:19 AM

I wish the best of luck for this panel, it sounds very interesting. I'm surprised some here have never been to an anime convention that has 18+ panels/discussions before. i'm mean they've already said numerous times that those grey area pictures will not be shown and i've seen plenty of magical girl hentai that would fit this topic and is not any more grey than the hentai being shown down the hall.

#86 User is offline   Naoya Toudou 

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 09:56 AM

I think we just have to leave it at this:
-This panel has been reviewed numerous times.
-there doesnt seem to be any cause for legal issues as far as acen staff is assuring
- the "gray" area has been established and will be remarked on.
- and this isnt a find "loli porn workshop" its a comical discussion on how one would see a character like cutey honey or sailormoon can go from her saving the universe from evil to having some alone time with Sailor Venus. ( which i always joke with my friends about lol)
-bottom line is this panel has been approved and is happening and whether you join or not is up to you but dont make it difficult for others.

#87 User is offline   SunnyJ 

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 08:00 PM

linlindesu, I've already reviewed the law that applies to this and I want to be honest, the law itself is a gray area.

Yes, a character typically has a "physical age" and a "mental age". In many cases the characters physical age and mental age don't coincide; however, what the law applies to is their physical looking age. Now, lets be realistic. The age range from about 15-20ish can be very misleading for a certain group of women (even a larger range for some, smaller for others). Some of them, physically, it is difficult to tell. Now, at that point when you take into account the fact that Anime, Manga, Hentai, and most anything else within the "Anime Community" is drawn, a lot of defining features are taken out to leave you with somewhat generically drawn characters that lack several of the items that you would typically use to tell their age.

Now, am I using this as a reason to say that anything that looks questionable is OK? Not really, what I am saying is that, that is the issue where determining age of a character comes into play. Yes, there is content explicitly drawn to look well underage, there is content within the realm of question, and there is content well over that age. When hentai/doujin doesn't have a defined age, what features does the law use to determine age?

You mention Bible Black explicitly listing on the cover that all characters are 18+. I looked at the cover, I don't see any such label. I do see on the back, and I quote "a junior college Magic Club," I also see the line "all characters depicted in sexual conduct or in the nude are aged 19 or older." Know what? This actually takes place in high school, how many high school students do you know are 19 or older? So, if I take a characters are 18+ sticker and slap it on a <insert_series_here> doujin, are we good? Further, actually Nanoha doujin and H-Content is allowed as in season 3 they are both 19... now bare in mind if they obviously draw them to be of a non 18 age... your risk.

You do also bring up a good point, mass media taking things out of context... though, you also have to remember, this happens often. How often does it happen where a reporter (maybe purposely) doesn't get the whole story, publishes something entirely out of context, and then needs to fix it... only to have that fix on a last page or somewhere unlikely to be noticed. Second, not the intention of my panel or what I want to do with it, and also a personal opinion of MINE, not the conventions, but maybe the media and the general public need to wake up and realize this is drawn... aka not real. I could go into pages on this; though, again, absolutely not the point I'm using this panel for. To be honest, a lot of what I'm going to go over can be part of any genre of anime... I'm just applying it towards mahou shoujo. You're welcome to think what you want about it, and make recommendations on it to help warn people from the legal gray line; however, this is all good clean... well.. echii fun >_>

I do mention cardcaptor sakura as it is a mahou series, but do you honestly think I'd be that dumb to include any actual adult content in regards to that series?!? You've got to be joking... While I'm sure adult content exists in Japan of this series, there would have to be some pretty good explanations of how some adult form was brought here... 10 years into the future... yeah... it better look older (note, I'm sure this exists somewhere). Also, Tsubasa was a step in that direction... In the art examples I use, at least those that are adult pieces, have features that indicate they are 18+.

I do want to make one other point; albeit a point of question and attack, what is the general setting of most animes... and even hentais? High School... Yes... Further, who has seen any of the AMV Hells? <_<

#88 User is offline   Naoya Toudou 

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 08:19 PM

View PostSunnyJ, on 12 April 2012 - 08:00 PM, said:



You mention Bible Black explicitly listing on the cover that all characters are 18+. ...ect...This actually takes place in high school, how many high school students do you know are 19 or older? So, if I take a characters are 18+ sticker and slap it on a <insert_series_here> doujin, are we good?

To be honest, a lot of what I'm going to go over can be part of any genre of anime... I'm just applying it towards mahou shoujo. You're welcome to think what you want about it, and make recommendations on it to help warn people from the legal gray line; however, this is all good clean... well.. echii fun >_>

what is the general setting of most animes... and even hentais? High School.


My points exactly!

#89 User is offline   linlindesu 

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 09:22 PM

View PostSunnyJ, on 12 April 2012 - 08:00 PM, said:



Now, am I using this as a reason to say that anything that looks questionable is OK? Not really, what I am saying is that, that is the issue where determining age of a character comes into play. Yes, there is content explicitly drawn to look well underage, there is content within the realm of question, and there is content well over that age. When hentai/doujin doesn't have a defined age, what features does the law use to determine age?
"
You mention Bible Black explicitly listing on the cover that all characters are 18+. I looked at the cover, I don't see any such label. I do see on the back, and I quote "a junior college Magic Club," I also see the line "all characters depicted in sexual conduct or in the nude are aged 19 or older." Know what? This actually takes place in high school, how many high school students do you know are 19 or older? So, if I take a characters are 18+ sticker and slap it on a <insert_series_here> doujin, are we good? Further, actually Nanoha doujin and H-Content is allowed as in season 3 they are both 19... now bare in mind if they obviously draw them to be of a non 18 age... your risk.

You do also bring up a good point, mass media taking things out of context... though, you also have to remember, this happens often. How often does it happen where a reporter (maybe purposely) doesn't get the whole story, publishes something entirely out of context, and then needs to fix it... only to have that fix on a last page or somewhere unlikely to be noticed. Second, not the intention of my panel or what I want to do with it, and also a personal opinion of MINE, not the conventions, but maybe the media and the general public need to wake up and realize this is drawn... aka not real. I could go into pages on this; though, again, absolutely not the point I'm using this panel for. To be honest, a lot of what I'm going to go over can be part of any genre of anime... I'm just applying it towards mahou shoujo. You're welcome to think what you want about it, and make recommendations on it to help warn people from the legal gray line; however, this is all good clean... well.. echii fun >_>

I do mention cardcaptor sakura as it is a mahou series, but do you honestly think I'd be that dumb to include any actual adult content in regards to that series?!? You've got to be joking... While I'm sure adult content exists in Japan of this series, there would have to be some pretty good explanations of how some adult form was brought here... 10 years into the future... yeah... it better look older (note, I'm sure this exists somewhere). Also, Tsubasa was a step in that direction... In the art examples I use, at least those that are adult pieces, have features that indicate they are 18+.

I do want to make one other point; albeit a point of question and attack, what is the general setting of most animes... and even hentais? High School... Yes... Further, who has seen any of the AMV Hells? <_<


Please stop saying anything like "your risk". That is like saying "hey, there won't be any cocaine at drug related panel but if you want to do some later hey, your risk ;DDD " . And that probably is not what you meant but that is exactly what you sound like , sir.

"All characters depicted in sexual or nude content are aged 19 years or older"
back of the box. best picture I could take http://i39.tinypic.com/dd25g9.jpg
And considering how these girls are drawn? to look in their late 20s. yea, I'd say slaping a sticker on is completely fine.


And considering you mentioned Homura as one of the girls you were thinking of showing ( or your favorite, whatever) yes I do think you may be that dumb. your word choice there, not lashing out.

Listen, I know you just want your panel and I understand that. But many many people are still wondering why acen thought it was a good idea to bring something like this to the table.And the reply I keep receiving. is that it was reviewed. Good to know. I'm sure this won't cause any trouble at all and everything will just go peachy keen. A post that gabicho made a page or so ago reflects my feelings. I'm fine with whatever you are into but that belongs in a faintly lit room. Not at a convention. It is a closed door subject and it is very very taboo. ( before anyone says "well, why do you not feel that way about the hentai viewing rooms and the bondage panel and etc?" well, that's legal. there's no gray area in that.And if acen allowed a gray area material to be viewed, pretty sure hell would have broken lose by now)
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Posted 13 April 2012 - 04:36 AM

Okay I'm gonna step in here and ask people to kindly move on unless you have something new and relevant to the panel content to say/ask. You have made your concerns known. Repeatedly. We've spoken with SunnyJ privately, reviewed the outline again, and may review the content in person with him at con. What I see are people raising concerns, that may also have misconceptions about the panel's content, and are automatically letting their imagination take them to their worst-imagined scenario of the content.

We have given our position on the matter, but apparently it is not the answer you wish to hear, therefore you keep pressing the issue.

I'm also going to say this right now:
If people find the subject matter unpalatable, then you do not have to attend. Those attending are to conduct themselves in a civilized manner. What I do not want to see is some kind of "moral lynch mob" showing up at panels they disagree with and disrupting things for other attendees. Situations like that will be dealt with as appropriate.

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