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(( Wearables Clause )) Your opinion?

#1 User is offline   BlackWaltzPinion 

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 08:53 PM

I personally have to congratulate the Artist's Alley Department Head and all other supporting staff on their decision to only allow 50% of a table's space to be allotted to t-shirts. Although they couldn't have explained their reasoning better themselves on the e-mail that was sent, I have to vent a bit. Especially after last year when all the spaces in Artist's Alley were gone in a matter of hours, I was really miffed to see how many tables were taken up by really quite popular artists. Although I love the art of not going to be mentioned studios, the fact they were simply selling t-shirts as opposed to art books and other paraphernalia really rubbed me the wrong way. Not only that, but they were raking in more business than some exhibitors, and yet they had only paid $60.

Once again, I'm not knocking the web comics or artists who were behind these tables, but as was said in the AA e-mail "They owe it to the community after they succeed to move into the exhibitors hall and make room for those who need a chance to start".

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#2 User is offline   JujuFox 

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 09:36 PM

Lol I expect the AA to fill up within a matter of hours! I get nervous just thinking about it!

I was surprised to see those certain t-shirt sellers in the AA last year. They had a prime location too. I was kinda wondering why they weren't on the other side. Next year they should put them right across from Level Up Studios. :P

Oh and with the new rule this year I am thinking about selling shirts, but I have to weigh the costs and well... make the art first! Only 3 or 4 designs, so that will be waaaay less than 50% of my table.
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#3 User is offline   BrokenRemnantStudios 

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Posted 29 November 2011 - 08:19 AM

I completely agree with you Bigfoot! (love the icon btw!)

I believe if your studio has become a huge success in general then you should move over to the exhibit hall and give the smaller, less recognized studios a chance. Meaning if you see half the patrons lining up at your table to purchase your products (not neccessarily just tshirts, but other goods as well) and you start bringing in a considerable amount of profit, then it's time to go play with the big kids!

I'm curious to know how the Department Heads are going to use their awesome Jedi skills to filter out those that should be in the Dealer's Hall vs. Artist Alley? Hmmmmmmmmm :shuriken:
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#4 User is offline   Christy 

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 01:28 PM

I can see why the AA would decide to limit how much of any given product is sold on an AA table to avoid oversaturation of the alley with a single product type. You don't necessarily want Artist Alley to become Tee-Shirt Alley, Cosplay Alley, Plushy Alley, Chibi Alley or Button Alley. Variety makes for a healthy alley and the con should encourage that. Also, I feel that it's within the conventions rights to limit products and items in the AA that might compete directly with the dealer's hall. Furthermore, there's a spirit and intent behind the purpose of the AA to promote and showcase artistic talent and abilities. If a vendor comes in and violates that intent for personal profit, then they too should be encouraged to move to the dealer's hall. You guys are right in that it's not fair that willing artists should be denied space because somebody else is abusing the low AA rates.

That being said, I feel it's wrong to say that just because an artist or studio is successful, popular and/or makes money they should be shunted into the dealer's room. Popular artists serve as a draw to the alley and should remain there as long as a) thier work conforms to the rules set out by AA staff, specifically that the work must be the product of the artist b ) that it doesn't directly compete with licensed, exisiting merchandise, and c) that the amount of merchandide sold remains within the confines of the space provided under the AA contract (in other words, you're not selling so much stuff that you're infringing on walkspace or your neighbor's space).

Dealer's booths are very, very expensive and if an artist is being required to move just because they have a following or make good sales, that could discourage a well known/popular artist from attending the convention at all. I know at least several fairly popular artists that sit in the Acen Alley every year. They sell well and have lines for thier work. And I know for a fact that if they were moved to the dealer's hall to make room for lesser known artists, they would never make the money that was paid for the space nor would they be able to write off the loss like many of the dealers do and therefore would cease attending.

BRS - The staff are actually using thier Jedi skills to filter out those who should be in the Dealer's Hall... by putting limits on the number of tables available for purchase by a single person or group, by defining what sort of products can be sold in the alley and by making rules such as the T-Shirt rule to prevent people from abusing the alley's low prices and encouraging variety. Evaluating the overall profitability of an artist for purposes of placement is not really the place of the con unless the profit made is obviously egregious (like 5 figures) and the sales of such merchandise creates major traffic problems within the alley.

#5 User is offline   BrokenRemnantStudios 

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 05:26 PM

I disagree with ya Christy. I think if the artist is making a huge profit and people are lining up to buy their stuff, then it would be beneficial to them and other newer artists to get themselves a bigger space in the dealer hall. I'm not saying they have to...but it's something they should definitely consider. If you're at big kid status, why stick around with the small timers? :P
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#6 User is offline   Christy 

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Posted 01 December 2011 - 09:10 AM

View PostBrokenRemnantStudios, on 30 November 2011 - 05:26 PM, said:

I disagree with ya Christy. I think if the artist is making a huge profit and people are lining up to buy their stuff, then it would be beneficial to them and other newer artists to get themselves a bigger space in the dealer hall. I'm not saying they have to...but it's something they should definitely consider. If you're at big kid status, why stick around with the small timers? :P

Just to be clear, when I refer to artists I do refer to individuals who make unique creative products/designs/items and sell them. I discount people who slap cute slogans on tee shirts with no art as they're main product or mass produce art by cutting and pasting heads and expressions onto predrawn bodies and then color them to make different pictures - practices I've seen at different alleys and throrougly disapprove of.

Most artists do consider the prospect of going to the dealer's hall and actually will IF and only IF they can afford the inital outlay of cash and clear the table with a reasonable profit margin. Dealer's Hall gives you the most exposure, it's good business. Unfortunately, most artists can't afford it, even when they're popular and that's a straight up fact. Dealer's tables START at $650 and that's very early reigstration and without selecting your row, which costs extra. Then you factor in the costs of food, loging, travel, display and materials. That's over 10 times the cost of an AA space. Realistically, they'd have to pull in around at least two grand or better in sales to make that work. I can do the math for you if you'd like hard numbers.

To make sitting in the dealer's hall fiscally realistic, an artist needs one or more of the following: Corporate backing, heavy professional credits (as in DC, Marvel, etc), guest status (like Bob DeJesus), or a schtick like Andy Lee who can do 1 painting every 10 minutes at $20 a pop and keep running through the whole con.

I'm not knocking the idea pre se, but it is highly unrealistic. And for the con itself to require artists to move to a space that could cost them more than 10 times extra just for being popular and selling well is essentially punishing the artist for being successful. As long as the artist is a ligitamite artist and not just making "merchandise" as described above I don't see what the problem is. Some of my best sales have come from being next to or near a popular artist. They're a draw and make business better for everyone in the AA.

This post has been edited by Christy: 01 December 2011 - 09:10 AM


#7 User is offline   Millions_Knives 

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Posted 01 December 2011 - 09:45 AM

id rather not say anything without Phill putting in his view or an ok

AA is working hard to protect artist while giving ppl with great ideas a chance to earn a honest buck
with the largest AA in NA as of last year, (im told) there should be lots of space
(instead of expanding the dealers hall witch may have been more cost effective)

and even the smallest artiest can display their work in the silent auction (for a percentage if sold)

(edit)
christy has a good insight into the numbers game and balance needed for a healthy and vibrant marketplace

This post has been edited by Millions_Knives: 01 December 2011 - 09:49 AM

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#8 User is offline   BrokenRemnantStudios 

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Posted 01 December 2011 - 10:45 AM

I know of at least one person who was in the artist alley for at least 5 years before they moved on up to the dealers room. They managed to do it all on their own without corporate backing, big names, special guests or any of that. And I'm certainly not saying that the Department Heads should force successful artists to move to the dealer's hall, seeing as how they have no idea what the artist can or cannot afford. I'm merely suggesting that a successful artist should toy with the idea to increase their exposure. If it's not in their budget, then stay in the AA (as long as they comply with the rules of course ^_^ )
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#9 User is offline   IcyPanther 

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Posted 01 December 2011 - 08:03 PM

I think it's an interesting topic all around.
I myself am planning on making some screen-printed bags with chibis I've drawn, but will be ironing them all by hand, and of course all the art was drawn by me in my own style. And no t-shirts. Ick.

I think it all depends, as the arguments have been saying, what kind of art is being used -- i.e., bases with different outfits, copied or traced -- and how it's mass produced. Plus, what else the table is presenting. In addition to teh bags, I'll be offering the chibis pre-screen printed so people can iron them onto their own things, charms, stickers, bookmarks and lots of different prints, plus commissions :)

For if they should move into the dealer hall, I think it's just like how everyone said you still need to be able to turn at least a small profit. Those tables are so expensive and a basic artist can't normally support that. However, I think "groups or studios" that are really big and draw a crowd could consider moving, since they'd have multiple members to help split the cost.

But the AA is for artists and art, and so long as your product is your own art (even if not your own character) then you should be able to stay in the AA :)
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#10 User is offline   JujuFox 

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Posted 01 December 2011 - 08:38 PM

View PostIcyPanther, on 01 December 2011 - 08:03 PM, said:

For if they should move into the dealer hall, I think it's just like how everyone said you still need to be able to turn at least a small profit. Those tables are so expensive and a basic artist can't normally support that. However, I think "groups or studios" that are really big and draw a crowd could consider moving, since they'd have multiple members to help split the cost.

The group I am thinking of last year in the AA had at least two tables if not three of just shirts. This is where the whole wearable clause came into play this year. All the other rules about blatant copyright infringement have been around since the beginning(I assume I've only been going since 2005). There are a lot of just shirt vendors on the other side, but they all do well and I'm sure that the studio will fit right in over there.

View PostIcyPanther, on 01 December 2011 - 08:03 PM, said:

I think it's an interesting topic all around.
I myself am planning on making some screen-printed bags with chibis I've drawn, but will be ironing them all by hand, and of course all the art was drawn by me in my own style. And no t-shirts. Ick.

Um I think you might be a little confused about screen printing.
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#11 User is offline   IcyPanther 

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Posted 01 December 2011 - 09:02 PM

View PostDavenEvanXaviour, on 01 December 2011 - 08:38 PM, said:

The group I am thinking of last year in the AA had at least two tables if not three of just shirts. This is where the whole wearable clause came into play this year. All the other rules about blatant copyright infringement have been around since the beginning(I assume I've only been going since 2005). There are a lot of just shirt vendors on the other side, but they all do well and I'm sure that the studio will fit right in over there.

Um I think you might be a little confused about screen printing.


That is ridculous with the t-shirts. Seriously??? The nice thing about doing something like bags or hats is that you don't need a ton of sizes and therefore you aren't making your whole table dedicated to it. Plus, I think you waste a lot less material =p

Haha, I guess you're right xD ^^; I call them screen-printed, but I guess the technical term would be iron-ons or ink transfers. Dunno why I've always used "screen printing", I think one of the sheets I have is called that. I shall try and use "iron on" bags from now on to avoid all the confusion and negatives that come with mass screen printing. :3
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#12 User is offline   BrokenRemnantStudios 

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Posted 03 December 2011 - 12:19 AM

two to three tables?? 0___0 good lord! If u have enough money to make or order all those shirts, go to the dealers room and get more exposure!! :P or just bring a few and let people know you have more available on a website :D
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#13 User is offline   Millions_Knives 

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Posted 03 December 2011 - 01:28 AM

some groups file under multiple names to pull off this trick

i think i can be hard to to spot these ppl purely through entry forms
and possibly proving it once they arrive

i will bring the up on the 10th
to prevent this

(my fear is more rigorous entry forms may result in alienating more artists than helping, especially new artists)
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#14 User is offline   IcyPanther 

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Posted 03 December 2011 - 08:25 AM

View PostMillions_Knives, on 03 December 2011 - 01:28 AM, said:

some groups file under multiple names to pull off this trick

i think i can be hard to to spot these ppl purely through entry forms
and possibly proving it once they arrive

i will bring the up on the 10th
to prevent this

(my fear is more rigorous entry forms may result in alienating more artists than helping, especially new artists)


Ouch, that is difficult. If they have already paid for the table, can you ask them toleave once they get there, or do they still get to keep all their tables? But for the studios that do have a lot of members that produce actual art, then it's okay to have several tables, right?

Speaking of entry forms, do you happen to have an idea of when the registration might start? I've been waiting for an email from the mailing list, but so far nada, and I'm afraid that since I work every weekday in the morning I'm going to miss it :(
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#15 User is offline   Voltaire30 

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Posted 03 December 2011 - 12:01 PM

View PostIcyPanther, on 03 December 2011 - 08:25 AM, said:

Ouch, that is difficult. If they have already paid for the table, can you ask them toleave once they get there, or do they still get to keep all their tables? But for the studios that do have a lot of members that produce actual art, then it's okay to have several tables, right?

Speaking of entry forms, do you happen to have an idea of when the registration might start? I've been waiting for an email from the mailing list, but so far nada, and I'm afraid that since I work every weekday in the morning I'm going to miss it :(


If a studio is in violation of the rules and regulations of the artist alley, we take steps to make sure that they understand what they are in violation of, and if the matter is not resolved after the warning, we escalate to other options. That being said, the maximum number of tables a studio can obtain is three (3), any more and they start pressing their luck with policy violations.

AA registration will be announced soon, as it is early December. I will try to give as much time in advance for people to know, and plan, but I don't want to rush what we have right now. Odds are that it will open on a weekday though.
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#16 User is offline   Sapphy 

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Posted 04 December 2011 - 08:44 PM

View PostVoltaire30, on 03 December 2011 - 12:01 PM, said:

AA registration will be announced soon, as it is early December. I will try to give as much time in advance for people to know, and plan, but I don't want to rush what we have right now. Odds are that it will open on a weekday though.


Around what time of the day has the AA Reg opened in the past? I'm so afraid that I'll be at work when it opens and I'll end up missing any open slots. :(
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#17 User is offline   JujuFox 

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Posted 04 December 2011 - 10:06 PM

View PostSapphy, on 04 December 2011 - 08:44 PM, said:

Around what time of the day has the AA Reg opened in the past? I'm so afraid that I'll be at work when it opens and I'll end up missing any open slots. :(

The AA staff won't make that information available until the date is closer. If you are on the mailing list then you will be notified in advance of the date and time, so don't worry about it! :)
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