[fntmalchemist]

I've been working on a cosplay of Wargreymon from the first season of Digimon.

so far, i've been able to make the armor out of cardboard very nicely, but the helmet is going to give me some trouble....

it needs to be oblong front to back, at least deep enough to sit on top of my head and cover down just past my nose.
(refrence pics):
http://dma.wtw-x.net.../WarGreymon.jpg
http://www.digimon-generation.org/bilder/a.../wargreymon.gif


the neck will also be troublesome since it appears to be layers of armor.

I'm looking for any suggestions you guys could provide for what to use to make this type of helmet. I've tried paper-mache, but it deformed too much in the drying, and ended up looking like it was smashed with a hammer. >.>

I'm almost at a complete loss of ideas so all suggestions are welcome.

[Lina]

Luke! You never told me you were doing this! D:

Anyways, my friend Corey might be able to help you though. He is really good at this stuff. At least, I think so.

[this_chick25]

There's a cosplayer called Featherweight on cosplay.com who has a decent tutorial on how to build bases for helmets out of cardboard, and he builds on the bases using various combinations of Bondo, hot glue, and cardboard. It may help you start.

I have used this tutorial myself to start the base for some headgear I've made, but I used different materials.

This post has been edited by this_chick25: 21 August 2009 - 01:26 PM

[Angel of Death]

hummm...kinda tricky that is.

First off Cardboard is not the best material for armor/suit making, but if you are having fun with it, and like the way it is turning out. That is all that matters, it's all about your preference, and having fun with it.

I would suggest making a mold off your head. or start with a base already made. Like a cheap bicycle helmet. that will give you the base structure to build the rest of the head/mask off of.

you may need to add extra molded area to the helmet if you go that route to give the front its shape, as it goes in front of your face, and most helmets do not. You can use anything you need to give it the shape you desire. Cardboard should work fine.

Next I would use either fiberglass or carbon fiber. But seeing as fiber glass is vastly cheaper, and much easier to use. I would go that route. Fiber glassing is not as hard as it looks. Just get all the materials needed for you job. Resin/hardener, The fiberglass sheets/rolls, maybe some bondo, sandpaper, and your paint(s). All these materials you can get at most car parts place, and hardware stores, or many places on the internet, which is much cheaper usually.

Basically what you do now is mix the fiberglass materials via the directions and start to apply them to your mold, creating an outer shell. this is also the time you add things like the Spike on the nose of your helmet. Again, using something kind of solid to mold the fiberglass to. Rolled up construction board maybe.

at this point making it supper smooth is not important so don't worry about too much unevenness. But try not to make it too uneven as it will just make more work for you later.

Let the fiberglass cure for the designated time...You may need to add multiple layers so curing times will vary.

after it is set. Now you can start to make it pretty. first get a mask/respirator type if you can. Sanding fiberglass is messy and you don't want to be breathing it in. In fact, during most of your work with fiberglass you should wear a mask. Anyways...Sand the mask smooth. You will likely notice spots that are lower then the rest of the mask. This is where you can either fill with more fiberglass or use bondo, just be aware that bondo adds a decent amount of weight so if you can avoid it, don't use that much of it. but fill low areas and let that cure. then re-sand everything again. I didn't mention it before, but work from a rougher grip sandpaper to a fine grip sandpaper...I would go as fine a grit as possible 400 or 600 is even better, the finer the finish, the better the paint will look later.

After all sanding is done, there is an important step most people forget...CLEAN THE SURFACES. anything you want painted, at least wipe down with a damp cloth. Paint doesn't stick well to dust. It also affects the color and shine of the paint.

Now it's time to paint...use whatever way you like. I suggest spray paints, or even better car paints with a true pneumatic painter. Either way, take your time, and it is always better to do multiple light coats than a few heavy coats...you don't want paint to run/drip. After you have the base coat of paint on you may need to go through and paint in details. I see on this example you may need to paint some black lines and other details. For this it is fairly basic. I suggest here to use painters tape and mark out the areas to be painted. the black lines might be easier to brush on than spray, but if you cover all the area that is not going to be painted black, then you should be able to spray the lines on as well. After all your detail work is done I strongly suggest a coat or two of clear coat. It will make everything POP and shine equally and give it a clean finish.

as far as the neck armor goes...If you were using cardboard for the rest of the suit, i would continue with it. Cut the shapes needed, and tape over the corrugated edges for a clean finish to them before painting them. To give it the scaled look, but still allow it to be flexible around your neck you can connect them so they still flex. the way i am thinking of doing this is almost sewing the pieces together, maybe with yarn, so that they stay in place, yet allow you to move around. The scales appear that they go all the way to the helmet, so you should be able to connect them to the helmet somewhere to make sure they don't fall down. they would kind of be like curtains off your helmet.

well i hope that helps somewhat...if i think of other stuff I'll try to let you know.

Otherwise good luck, and have fun with it! Oh and take progress pictures if you haven't already, It is something that is good for future referencing on how you did something in the past. Also so you can show people

[Voxx]

If you want to scrap that idea you could try model magic made by crayola. That stuff is freakin amazing (for the price, works good for small items, but you need a lot for something like armor)

[fntmalchemist]

@this_chick25:
thanks for the link that guy you pointed to certainly is thorough with his explanations, however his helmets all seem to end as a humanoid/Gundam style, where as mine isn't meant for a human shaped head. however, i believe that base he started with would go well in conjunction with Angel of Death's suggestion of fiberglass molding.

@Angel of Death:
O_o
wow, well fiberglass never occurred to me before.. interesting.......

sounds like you are a hardcore armor maker, thanks for the advice! I like the idea of using a bicycle helmet as a mold, that is basically the shape I need right off the bat!

while I do try to strive for quality in my work, I am a low-cost cost costume maker.... funds are hard to come be for me now a days. XP

If I have trouble with finding these materials you've recommended, I'd hope it'll be cool to PM you for some help

I'd love to share my progress, once i actually get them started again. I posted here last year for similar help but for an Omnimon cosplay. i got just shy of halfway done when my basement flooded and ruined everything >< the pieces were similar so I've still got pages of calculations of Sines and Cosines to make an irregular hexagonal shoulder plate that popped out.

[Angel of Death]

hey it's no problem for me to ask more question...I don't mind at all, and there are quite a few good armor makers on the forum. So there should always be someone that can help.

[Millions_Knives]

i respectfully disagree with Angel of Death
some research into thermoforming may be of interest
(professionally produced resins, plastics, and fiberglass. molds, castings, and models)
fiberglass and resins can be hazardous for beginner
smaller projects should be attempted before taking on larger ones
if attempting it is advisable to wear all recommended protective gear
but ill stop ranting
pm me for for more info
sry if i sound like a jacka$$

[Voxx]

Millions_Knives, on Aug 21 2009, 10:39 PM, said:

i respectfully disagree with Angel of Death
some research into thermoforming may be of interest
(professionally produced resins, plastics, and fiberglass. molds, castings, and models)
fiberglass and resins can be hazardous for beginner
smaller projects should be attempted before taking on larger ones
if attempting it is advisable to wear all recommended protective gear
but ill stop ranting
pm me for for more info
sry if i sound like a jacka$$

^ You don't! Your just experienced lol

Id like to see that on a bumper sticker: I'm not a jacka$$, I'm just experienced

[Lina]

And Angel of Death isn't? :\

[Angel of Death]

Millions_Knives, on Aug 21 2009, 10:39 PM, said:

i respectfully disagree with Angel of Death
some research into thermoforming may be of interest
(professionally produced resins, plastics, and fiberglass. molds, castings, and models)
fiberglass and resins can be hazardous for beginner
smaller projects should be attempted before taking on larger ones
if attempting it is advisable to wear all recommended protective gear
but ill stop ranting
pm me for for more info
sry if i sound like a jacka$$

didn't come off as a jack-anything

You are just giving the guy some more ideas/options....

But i will say 1 helmet is a starter spot for fiberglass work...and I certainly agree with using protective items during all parts of fiberglass work.

A single piece of a suit seams to be a great spot to start fiberglass work, and even if you fail at it...it is fairly inexpensive, and then you know weather you will like it or not. Or if it works for you or not.

----------------------------------------------------

As far as experience goes...we all know on internet forums that post counts are directly proportional to actual knowledge, right...lol (this is kind of a joke of my motorcycle forums as well)


Well lets get some more ideas. Just remember there are no stupid ideas...just stupid people.

[Haggisstew]

Me and Shinigami Leo have dis-proved the no stupid idias just stupid people theory countless times. Because we're two smart people with incredably stupid idias. My idia, make the helmet out of LEGOs. So if it breaks you can just put it back together.

[this_chick25]

Resin/fiberglass is indeed awesome for the finished look (when done right), but it can be expensive if you're a first timer (you have to consider "screw-up factor"--always buy at least 50% more supplies and materials than projected, because very few people get it right the first time). It's not something you can (or want to) do in your bedroom, and it's definitely not soemthing you want to cut corners and/or take shortcuts with.

Maybe for simplicity's sake (and matching materials), he should continue with cardboard for now...

fntmalchemist, on Aug 21 2009, 02:58 PM, said:

@this_chick25:
thanks for the link that guy you pointed to certainly is thorough with his explanations, however his helmets all seem to end as a humanoid/Gundam style, where as mine isn't meant for a human shaped head. however, i believe that base he started with would go well in conjunction with Angel of Death's suggestion of fiberglass molding.

You can build off the base, because no matter what the outer shape of the helmet is, it is still hugging onto a human head--you don't want your own head rattling around inside a gigantic helmet like a bean in a can, and building your own base would keep you from having to spend money on a bike/baseball/paintball/motorcycle helmet.

I used Featherweight's "Helmet base" tutorial to build the inner brace for my Dipp cosplay (which is obviously not the shape of a human head) as well as another cosplay that I'm still perfecting, but I used plastic mesh and yarn instead of cardboard and hot glue (I sweat a lot, and everyone knows that sweat + cardboard = papier-mâché )

This post has been edited by this_chick25: 22 August 2009 - 05:32 AM

[fntmalchemist]

Millions_Knives, on Aug 21 2009, 10:39 PM, said:

i respectfully disagree with Angel of Death
some research into thermoforming may be of interest
(professionally produced resins, plastics, and fiberglass. molds, castings, and models)

I actually have not heard of thermoforming before, I'll try to look into that. Can you give me a brief description of just what that that would entail?

Haggisstew, on Aug 22 2009, 01:24 AM, said:

Me and Shinigami Leo have dis-proved the no stupid idias just stupid people theory countless times. Because we're two smart people with incredably stupid idias. My idia, make the helmet out of LEGOs. So if it breaks you can just put it back together.

Believe it or not, I have already considered that XD.

@Angel of Death:
I've been looking into the fiberglass-ing, and you are right, it does seem fairly cheap for the potential of a high quality product. however, some tutorials i have found say that I'll need fleece, to put between some sort of layers, but then never mention it again. Will fleece be necessary for this project, and if so, how?

@this_chick25:
hmmm, plastic mesh and yarn you say? I would suppose that both of those should be available at some sort of craft store?

This post has been edited by fntmalchemist: 22 August 2009 - 07:44 AM

[this_chick25]

Thermoforming is shaping plastic by various methods of using heat. Knives taught me how to do it, but he's more skilled at it than I am, so I'll let him explain it in detail.

Yes, it's the same plastic mesh that can be used for counted cross-stitching. A decent-sized sheet (I think 11 x 17 inches) costs me between 99 cents and $1.29, and you can get a better price if you buy a multi-pack. Fursuiters also use it as a base that they build around when they make their mascot-style heads (also not human-shape), as shown here.

This post has been edited by this_chick25: 22 August 2009 - 08:06 AM

[Angel of Death]

fntmalchemist, on Aug 22 2009, 08:32 AM, said:

@Angel of Death:
I've been looking into the fiberglass-ing, and you are right, it does seem fairly cheap for the potential of a high quality product. however, some tutorials i have found say that I'll need fleece, to put between some sort of layers, but then never mention it again. Will fleece be necessary for this project, and if so, how?

The fleece is just a structural modifier, as in it helps with extra rigidity in multilayer fiberglass work. For making a mask, that is to be worn and not hold up any other mass, or be subjected to much force, the fleece shouldn't be necessary. Think of the fleece like the honeycomb used in a bee hive. The structure is very strong and lightweight, thus adding a lot of rigidity to a hive without much weight. Also I would think 2-3 layers of fiberglass should be enough...you want to make it as light as possible, so that you can be wearing it as much as you can. Heavy head gear gets very annoying.

Carbon fiber uses the same method when making thicker sheets of it...you do a few layers of carbon fiber, then add a think aluminum honeycomb, and then more layers of carbon fiber. The finished product is many times more strong then just the same amount of carbon fiber layers. I have found you can use aluminum window screening to much the same effect but for a fraction of the cost of actual carbon fiber honeycomb.

[Millions_Knives]

items needed
polystyrene, pcv, or acrylic sheeting
vacuum table
and shop vac
polystyrene is best for beginners
research pcv and acrylic for more advanced and difficult designs
how to make a vacuum table
follow these videos
make mold and enjoy
good times to all

[fntmalchemist]

Millions_Knives, on Aug 22 2009, 07:27 PM, said:

items needed
polystyrene, pcv, or acrylic sheeting
vacuum table
and shop vac
polystyrene is best for beginners
research pcv and acrylic for more advanced and difficult designs
how to make a vacuum table
follow these videos
make mold and enjoy
good times to all

hmmm, this is also an excellent permanent costume idea, as with the fiberglass-ing.

@Angel of Death & Millions_Knives:

is there any material that would be a BAD idea for me to make a model/mold with? I kinda like Ska_Toranpetta's idea of using Crayola Model Magic. If not that, then I would be making a base for my helmet (if not all my pieces) out of cardboard and model magic.

both of those materials should be safe and easily removable from either fiberglass or polystyrene correct?

[Millions_Knives]

i would not use Crayola Model Magic for this
it is to soft for thermoforming
and the heat could also deform the mold
it would be good to start with a foam wig head you can find at any beauty supply store
then make the mold from something like plaster of paris or clay
(be sure to cover all the foam in a thin protective layer)
pros: once mold is done shaping is quick and easy
cons: more complex shapes need partial molds to complete
wear heavy gloves

resins take several steps to make a mold for a helmet
the material need is sometimes specific to the type of resin used
pros:well made molds produce many high quality reproductions
cons: strongly recommend practice making props then armor then concave shapes like helmets
it is also likely to be the most expensive method
wear disposable gloves

fiberglass molds can be made of most anything rigid enough to hold the needed shape(that i know of)
pros:can be made into nearly any continuous and detailed shape
cons: requires much more finishing than the other methods
in the sanding phase you will want to have all your protective gear on because glass partials are not good to get on your hands or face

painting tips:
thick base coat to hide fiberglass texture or properly bond to plastic or resin
color
gloss
gloss
gloss


i prefer to buy my plastic in the color i need so i dont have to paint it
i have to make more complex shaped parts out of fiberglass
but i hate sanding so i try to avoid it
i also would not recommend a plastic called wanderflex for armor like this because of its texture
but with some work i have found it useful for making things like claws and nails that often smack into things
most plastic, resin, fiberglass, and cardboard will crack, rip, or warp under these conditions
~tired from ranting~

im sure Angel of Death can fill in all the things i missed
he is a Sempai
so i bet hes been making cosplay longer than i have

good times to all

[Angel of Death]

Millions_Knives covered most things that i wanted to say.

I agree to not use Crayola Model magic for a mold, it can be too soft and as mentioned b4 if you decided to vacuum form pieces, the heat may be too much for it.

About resins...They will work great for a mold, but may take you a long time to make a mold you are happy with.

As far as fiberglass molds go. Just about anything can be used, it just must be rigid enough for you to apply some force to it, to allow the fiberglass to contour to the mold. this is why Model magic isn't a great choice here either. It can be soft, and as you push the fiberglass to the shape of the mold, you could deform the mold. The finishing work needed on fiberglass will take some time, but with patience and a bit of dedication things turn out looking phenomenal. Sanding is likely the most important step, and will take the longest. You want to get that helmet as smooth as a baby's as$. Then clean it (wipe with damp cloth to remove dust/debris. Base coat/primer. Color paint next. Remembering that many thinner layers are better than thicker coats, to prevent runs. This will also give an even coating to the entire surface. Then clear coat to protect it, and make it shine. Again here doing a few lighter coats is better than thicker ones.

Note: Safety gear is extremely important when working with most of these materials. Fiberglass finishing especially. Wear gloves, long sleeve shirt, long pants, close toed shoes/boots, and some sort of mask, a canister filter type is better than just the paper types, but anything is going to help. Some thing like this: Canister mask Some sort of over the eye goggles is recommended too, but to be honest i haven't used them. But i would recommend them anyways.

[fntmalchemist]

I've found some 8" diameter Styrofoam balls and I think that they would make a good model for my shoulder joint armor.

the Styrofoam is the hard prickly kind, not the soft squishy kind used as packaging stuffing.

it is definitely hard enough to withstand the pressure of me putting fiberglass on it, but will it withstand it chemically? Will the resin eat through the styrofoam, or will it bond since it is porous; and not allow the fiberglass to be removed leaving the sphere intact?

[this_chick25]

Oh heck yeah. You'll definitely have to put up a barrier before you put resin on that, or it'll dissolve like a sugar cube in the rain.

A few thick layers of gesso or latex paint (at least three) should make a decent barrier. Make sure there are absolutely no holes in the barrier, or the resin will flow into them and attack the foam.

This post has been edited by this_chick25: 01 September 2009 - 12:15 PM

[fntmalchemist]

WOOO!

thanks for the suggestion, I was trying to think of a barrier, to use, but i didn't want to use wax paper or ceran wrap b/c of how loose and wrinkly it would be.

I actually have about 32oz of liquid latex body paint from my last cosplay gadget that I can use to cover the sphere.

I really got work on this whole "short term memory" thing. >>

[Angel of Death]

The body paint might work, but I'm not sure how well. I have never used body paint to paint anything other than bodies.

So my suggestion for that is: trial and error method.

[this_chick25]

Not body paint--latex wall paint!

[fntmalchemist]

this_chick25, on Sep 9 2009, 11:36 AM, said:

Not body paint--latex wall paint!

Oh.

Well. I've got both. Either should fill up all the holes in the Styrofoam spheres nicely I think. I'll try each and see with works best then.

I've finally finished the helmet base that you had suggested, and you're absolutely right. that plastic mesh holds together like no other!

@Angel of Death
I've got some technical questions about the fiber glassing, since I'm about to do a test run (hopefully). [I'll PM you.]

[obakasan]

Sounds like you are already well along, but for future consideration, and for any others reading this, don't forget you can get a "base" form pretty darn cheap by using kid's toy helmets or Halloween costume pieces. The are usually el cheapo lightweight formed plastic and may need some extra reinforcing to keep them from collapsing if you pile on heavy stuff or protrusions. A friend made a real nice "armor" helmet with a face visor from a "kids toy" race car driver's helmet. Ordered it on-line, but during this Halloween season you may find it locally. If you can wait, hit the stores at clearance time. Plus check out any rummage sales/resale shops etc.

I've done some Sci-Fi stuff using military surplus helmets. Certainly strong and sturdy, but can be very very heavy (Think Vader's helmet in Spaceballs). Some "training" helmets are more lightweight and plastic. I used to pick up surplus items at "gun" shows for only a few bucks a pop. Also look for "bump" hats/helmets as used in construction, batting helmets, ect.

As for cardboard. Besides corrugated "box cardboard, which can come in quite a variety of thicknesses, there is also thinner "shirt cardboard" and "chipboard" (like used as backing on padded notepads) that can be easily cut and shaped. All can crease however. If you need to do something like overlapping "plates" you could consider thin plastic sheets (model shops would carry it, but they will charge big $$$). Less likely to crease, but there is a possibility of it cracking.

Side note on corrugated: "Single wall" stuff is sometimes real flimsy. Used a lot on retail boxes that may be used once then thrown away. Stuff used on shipping boxes often a bit heftier. "Double wall" often used on larger boxes like what computers etc come in. I've even seen (and have some) "Triple" and Quad" thickness used for "Export shipping" boxes or heavy equipment cartons. The really thick stuff is almost like wood (and sometimes almost as heavy). Shipping supply companies may sell the stuff in sheets (check places like Uline Corp.), or just raid a dumpster.

There are places you may be able to use foam core board as well (office and art supply stores), but in my experience the stuff can warp too easily.

Time for me to shut up...

[fntmalchemist]

Thanks for the advice, I'll definitely be keeping children's costumes in mind as a base in the future (I am by no definition an "artist" and therefore cannot sculpt clay or playdoh or model magic to save my life)

I've not come across anything that was similar enough to the helmet I needed to make a base for that, But I was thinking of getting a kid's toy baseball helmet, take a chunk out of the back and wrapping it up so the head area would now only accommodate my shoulder as a base for my shoulder joint armor.

any other input you have will still be useful to me for a while, I haven't committed to any one style of model prep, and I'm one to always, forgive the pun, toy around.

Thanks!

[fntmalchemist]

Well, I've just finished the a preliminary test, and have been able to make a rather sucessful cast of on of my cardboard molds! the mold did not survive, however that is only because one small area did not get enough wax and was stuck, the rest of it came off rather easily!

thanks for your help you guys, I'll be fixing the imperfections and making new pieces soon!

I would put up some pics, but I don't have a camera... sad pandas...

[Lina]

Yay! Congrats! =3 I'm glad things worked out.