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Unethical Fandom?

#31 User is offline   Cherry_Wolf 

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Posted 05 June 2009 - 11:42 PM

I'm too tired/lazy to read the other comments, but I just want to say a few things-

I will admit to watching anime 'illegally', but I am someone who will buy it if it's worth buying!

The beauty of online viewing is the fact I can preview the anime before wasting my money and time on it. Most shows, if all shows, I've watched online I have bought... and if I haven't, it's because they are either a) not licensed yet, b)dvds aren't released yet[example- I watch Phantom on Funimation site, it's not available yet in the states on dvd] or c) It's OOP and very hard to obtain.

I have a BIG buy list. I managed to buy a bit at ACen this year and I've also bought plenty of series online recently... trying to catch up eats money...

I encourage everyone to buy series, but I also feel people should be able to watch the series before they spend money on it and end up regretting it. Sure, you can sell it on ebay... but the likelihood of getting the same amount of money is kind of low...

and the Hetalia thing.... Shintarou Inuzuka said it best. ;w; I hope the Hetalia anime makes it overseas, but about 75% or more Hetalia fans are reading the webcomic more than watching the anime...

I should be sleeping, sorry if this response makes no sense.
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#32 User is offline   Matt PNiewski 

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Posted 06 June 2009 - 12:10 AM

View Postskyrune83, on Jun 5 2009, 10:49 AM, said:

Then why are anime distributors failing? And why can I not find decent anime on TV anymore?



Because instead of giving us quality, they try to give us quantity, with this disgusting smug-butt attitude "It's anime BUY IT!" instead of giving us a reason to. They buy up all the can from Japan without concern for what it is, assuming stupid young people who say "I like anything anime" will buy it.

Besides, the marketplace isn't as big as you seem to think. And it's actually getting smaller.

All the popular ones... Naruto, Deathnote, Bleach... Sell pretty well, and are shown on TV. And these were not only bootlegged, they were very bootlegged, and that's why the Distros wanted them. Because they were already popular. These people also bought unmarketable shows like "Narutaru", and others. The ones that are the most bootlegged still sell well. Problem is, they try to sell anime as a genre and anime fans as Genre fans. But "Haibane Renmei" isn't "Full Metal Panic" yet they try to sell both to the same person.

Mostly because they think we are mindless drones who go "oooh... anime....." And watch whatever the screw they tell us. I kinda like Deathnote. I hate Bleach and Naruto. Why should they assume that because I kinda like Deathnote (enough to watch on TV) I would like Bleach and Naruto? That's insulting. But more than that, it's really stupid marketing.

Look in the anime section of Best Buy. Look at all the crap you have never watched, and very few of your friends have watched. That's why Distributors are failing.

If they had realized "Hey, nobody's downloading that crap" and not bought it, they wouldn't have the problems they are.


Also, there was a place in Westmont that blew all it's money trying to sell Beanie Babies. But people don't care too much about them anymore. Now the store is gone because they couldn't sell all the Beanie Babies. Anime is actually dwindling in popularity, despite being a fan of anime (and just about anything....) becoming more trendy.
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#33 User is offline   skyrune83 

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Posted 06 June 2009 - 07:34 AM

View PostMatt PNiewski, on Jun 6 2009, 01:10 AM, said:

Anime is actually dwindling in popularity, despite being a fan of anime (and just about anything....) becoming more trendy.


There seems to be a difference of opinion on this. Here is a comment from Rob Bricken's site (re: Anime Insider going under):
http://www.toplessrobot.com/2009/03/anime_...2001_-_2009.php

Peter Payne said:
I'm Peter Payne of J-List, and I saw this coming a while ago. Very sad stuff as it was a good magazine we did our best to support. I'm still in shock of the death of Newtype USA, this just increases the lack of fun. The thing is, there IS NO "anime recession" at all -- there are more fans than ever. The problem is a) torrenting (yes, screwers), and b] the general craptasticness of the economy.
Posted 03/27/2009 at 11:04:45 AM


Honestly, I would have to agree with Peter. I've been to several cons, and I've heard the attendance increases every year.

I think what could have happened was this:
In the olden days (the late 90's), anime distributors released a select few shows, and a select few otaku bought them - the ones who had enough money. And companies were in modest shape. Over time, these select few otaku encouraged their friends to like anime too, and the otaku race increased. And then otaku demanded distributors release more shows. So they did - except it was becoming harder to cater to the growing audience's unique tastes. Plus, the companies figured they would cash in by NOT reducing prices of their series, which was a bad idea. Then, with the invention of video viewing sites and torrent sites, an ever-growing audience found themselves with two options: spend tons of money they might or might not have had on DVDs for shows they might or might not have liked, OR view/download shows online for free. Unfortunately, for many, the choice was easy. And meanwhile, the distributors realized their competition and tried to reduce prices finally, but by the time they did, the damage had been done. Old habits die hard.

This post has been edited by skyrune83: 06 June 2009 - 07:51 AM

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#34 User is offline   skyrune83 

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Posted 06 June 2009 - 07:39 AM

View PostKankokujin, on Jun 6 2009, 12:39 AM, said:

Hey. I'm all for supporting for legal consumption of anime as you but the fact of the matter is, there's still a lot anime that don't make it here and many most likely never will. You can't say we should miss out just because it's not available for DVD.

I didn't say DVD - I said on DVD *or* on online sites like CrunchyRoll.
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#35 User is offline   Matt PNiewski 

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Posted 06 June 2009 - 08:53 AM

View Postskyrune83, on Jun 6 2009, 08:34 AM, said:

There seems to be a difference of opinion on this. Here is a comment from Rob Bricken's site (re: Anime Insider going under):
http://www.toplessrobot.com/2009/03/anime_...2001_-_2009.php

Peter Payne said:
I'm Peter Payne of J-List, and I saw this coming a while ago. Very sad stuff as it was a good magazine we did our best to support. I'm still in shock of the death of Newtype USA, this just increases the lack of fun. The thing is, there IS NO "anime recession" at all -- there are more fans than ever. The problem is a) torrenting (yes, screwers), and b] the general craptasticness of the economy.
Posted 03/27/2009 at 11:04:45 AM


Honestly, I would have to agree with Peter. I've been to several cons, and I've heard the attendance increases every year.

I think what could have happened was this:
In the olden days (the late 90's), anime distributors released a select few shows, and a select few otaku bought them - the ones who had enough money. And companies were in modest shape. Over time, these select few otaku encouraged their friends to like anime too, and the otaku race increased. And then otaku demanded distributors release more shows. So they did - except it was becoming harder to cater to the growing audience's unique tastes. Plus, the companies figured they would cash in by NOT reducing prices of their series, which was a bad idea. Then, with the invention of video viewing sites and torrent sites, an ever-growing audience found themselves with two options: spend tons of money they might or might not have had on DVDs for shows they might or might not have liked, OR view/download shows online for free. Unfortunately, for many, the choice was easy. And meanwhile, the distributors realized their competition and tried to reduce prices finally, but by the time they did, the damage had been done. Old habits die hard.


I will not take you seriously because you referred to "otaku" as a race. If you think of a fanbase as a race then you are a sad, sad person.


This "Race" is full of petty fad followers who would have never bought the stuff anyway, and probably don't even watch it online.... How many Naruto fans I've met personally who haven't even seen the show, just 'Know the characters." How many people just go to cons because their friends do....


If Otaku is a race, than I'm a racist, because anyone who is defined by their fandom is a few pieces short of a puzzle....


I saw this coming a few years ago too. It's actually very easy to see. You put out product people don't want, it doesn't sell.And the anime section is FULL of that. How come the most bootlegged shows are the ones that sell the most,and are the most popular? The ones on TV, the ones with all the commercial tie ins? They are making the money! They ones that aren't making money are the ones being sold to us on the basis of "Its anime, you'll like it!" What you are saying cannot be true for this reason alone.

Now if you'll excuse, I'm going to go watch my bootleg copy of the New Star Trek movie. I'm sure my watching of this will ensure that it is a big collasol failure, just like the bootlegging of Wolverine....
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#36 User is offline   DaphHime 

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Posted 06 June 2009 - 09:47 AM

I can certainly see both arguments. The idea that otaku's are a race is laughable. I hate that word personally. It has very negative connotations in Japan. On the other hand, thinking that anime is a fad is just as laughable. Sure there are fads OF certain anime (how many Inu Yasha fans do you see now compared to, say, five years ago?) but I really don't see anime itself going anywhere. Naruto, Bleach, Death Note. Those ARE fads. Code Geass and (I'm probably going to get hurt for this one) Gurren Laggan are fads as well. It's really hard to call something as diverse and constant as anime a fad. Is the anime of today not as good as it was ten or so years ago? I'd have to agree. For every series that wanes in popularity, there's going to be a new one to take it's place.

And I'd also be wrong to say that Naruto and the like doesn't owe it's popularity to fansubs. Code Geass and Gurren Laggen probably wouldn't have been picked up if it weren't for that.

The problem, as I see it, is the industries' reluctance to adapt to new technologies. The music industry has the same problem. They've only recently utilized downloading music. I think things like CrunchyRoll/other legit online streaming sites and paying a small sum to download single episodes online is a very good idea. I'm having a hard time wondering why more fans aren't embracing this.

I've always tried to buy as much as I download. Though its become a lot harder with the way things are nowadays.
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#37 User is offline   skyrune83 

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Posted 06 June 2009 - 09:52 AM

Uh, I never intended this to be a racist discussion... :huh:

I guess I keep forgetting that people are OFFENDED by the term "otaku" these days. So I guess that means the last anime magazine "Otaku USA" is going under next, because its title offends people?

Seriously, people need to chill out. It's just words.
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#38 User is offline   Matt PNiewski 

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Posted 06 June 2009 - 09:55 AM

View Postskyrune83, on Jun 6 2009, 10:52 AM, said:

Uh, I never intended this to be a racist discussion... :huh:

I guess I keep forgetting that people are OFFENDED by the term "otaku" these days. So I guess that means the last anime magazine "Otaku USA" is going under next, because its title offends people?

Seriously, people need to chill out. It's just words.



No, that's not the problem.

The problem is when people refer to a fandom as a "race" or "lifestyle."

I'm a Trekkie, but not when I'm at work. I'm a Trekkie when I'm watching Star Trek, or talking about Star Trek. When I'm at work, I'm a cart monkey or a sound guy, depending on what job I'm working.

The word doesn't offend me. Hell, no words offend me.... Pretending fandom is more than just that... That's just pathetic..... Pathetic at the William Shatner "Get a life" level.
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#39 User is offline   opimus.rm 

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Posted 06 June 2009 - 10:12 AM

This thread is about to go down hill very fast. Mods get ready. :rolleyes:
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#40 User is offline   Matt PNiewski 

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Posted 06 June 2009 - 10:24 AM

View Postopimus.rm, on Jun 6 2009, 11:12 AM, said:

This thread is about to go down hill very fast. Mods get ready. :rolleyes:



Don't worry. I've said all I needed to say.
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#41 User is offline   skyrune83 

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Posted 06 June 2009 - 11:38 AM

View PostMatt PNiewski, on Jun 6 2009, 11:24 AM, said:

Don't worry. I've said all I needed to say.

Same here.
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Posted 06 June 2009 - 08:22 PM

View PostCherry_Wolf, on Jun 6 2009, 12:42 AM, said:

I will admit to watching anime 'illegally', but I am someone who will buy it if it's worth buying!

The beauty of online viewing is the fact I can preview the anime before wasting my money and time on it. Most shows, if all shows, I've watched online I have bought... and if I haven't, it's because they are either a) not licensed yet, b)dvds aren't released yet[example- I watch Phantom on Funimation site, it's not available yet in the states on dvd] or c) It's OOP and very hard to obtain.

That is pretty much exactly what I said, but like you said you were too lazy to read one page worth of replies. XDDD

View PostDaphHime, on Jun 6 2009, 10:47 AM, said:

And I'd also be wrong to say that Naruto and the like doesn't owe it's popularity to fansubs. Code Geass and Gurren Laggen probably wouldn't have been picked up if it weren't for that.

I actually saw pictures of Yoko a couple of years ago and I have always wondered where she was from until the end of '08. It started in '07, but I feel like I've seen pictures of her before that. Maybe I'm just crazy. XDDD
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View PostFoolish Humon, on 13 June 2010 - 07:19 PM, said:

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#43 User is offline   Kankokujin 

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Posted 06 June 2009 - 09:39 PM

View Postskyrune83, on Jun 6 2009, 08:39 AM, said:

I didn't say DVD - I said on DVD *or* on online sites like CrunchyRoll.

I know I said DVD but I was talking about legally viewing forms in general.
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Posted 06 June 2009 - 09:44 PM

Well said, Matt. After reading through everyone's arguments I have to say yours makes the most sense to me.

Gurren Lagann is at the top of my "buy" list and that's because I watched it online. Me and my friend have bought countless items of Death Note and followed it on TV, as well as manga and that LA Book. This is after watching the fansubs all in one day. Then I heard the next day it was coming to CN. Needless to say I was like "CRAP WASTE OF MY TIME D<" Nontheless this gave me the ability to tell all my disinterested friends to get their butts to their TV's. So my fansub watching gave them like ten to twenty more fans. I do this often. I am the resident internet addict so I'm often one of the ones who finds things to show others. If it's really good I won't give you a choice in watching it. And with my friends who are willing to give away lots of money for merchandise and videos and especially manga I'd say I'm really good free advertisement xD; A lot of the time those of us who pull shows straight from Japan are their best hopes for being popular in America.
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Also, coming from high school, I WOULD call anime a fad. People often tried to talk to me or relate to me with shows. I'd see kids reading manga in every class. It popped up my second or third year in school and is growing in trend. MTV even had an anime at one point, which I actually liked. My school has a growing amount of manga in its library, especially with the new librarian who reads it. Within the next five or ten years it will probably grow into popular subculture then go back into underground subculture. Cause that's the way things seem to work.
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#45 User is offline   Ohki 

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Posted 07 June 2009 - 03:41 AM

Um, excuse me? Hetalia is something that will possibly never BE licensed. If you're going to give me crap about watching a series that stands barely any chance of a US release, or worse yet, reading translated pages of a WEBCOMIC, then please shove it.

...I shouldn't respond to threads at 5 AM.
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#46 User is offline   skyrune83 

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Posted 07 June 2009 - 06:04 AM

View PostOhki, on Jun 7 2009, 04:41 AM, said:

Um, excuse me? Hetalia is something that will possibly never BE licensed. If you're going to give me crap about watching a series that stands barely any chance of a US release, or worse yet, reading translated pages of a WEBCOMIC, then please shove it.

...I shouldn't respond to threads at 5 AM.

Sigh... well I didn't KNOW Hetalia was something bizarre that wouldn't be released later... -_-
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Posted 07 June 2009 - 11:40 AM

There are so many reasons people watch anime "illegally"
Mine are pretty basic
1) To watch all anime that comes out and not just what Adult Swim and Best Buy force feed me.
2) So I don't feel completely cheated when buying a series
3) To keep on track with a series vs. buying them almost a year after they have an american release.
4) Titles I love are not always made available here , however, region code hacking and sites like ebay make it easy for me to have a real, non pirated ( hopefully) copy of a series I love.

To be honest, the death of the american anime industry sort of brings me a bit of joy. I dislike the direction dubbing has been headed towards for the past five- seven years and I hope decreased sales will make them notice. Luckily for me most DVDS have a Japanese w/ subtitles feature. I'm hoping the anime industry will become more direct by just licensing and subtitling anime titles. It would not only bring titles here faster so people with morals don't complain about their associates watching "illegal anime" , but would make the business far more profitable.
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#48 User is offline   skyrune83 

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Posted 07 June 2009 - 05:18 PM

View Postlinlindesu, on Jun 7 2009, 12:40 PM, said:

There are so many reasons people watch anime "illegally"
Mine are pretty basic
1) To watch all anime that comes out and not just what Adult Swim and Best Buy force feed me.


Ugh... Don't even get me started on what shows the networks choose. I just found out the other day that I have IFC, which has, gasp, ANIME! ... Oh but wait, it's crappy fanservice shows like Gunslinger Girl and Witchblade. <_<
Currently, SciFi Channel is the only channel showing decent anime, like Gurenn Lagann and Gundam 00, but they're on at such a ridiculous time that it makes me want to pull my hair out!

And forget about Adult Swim - they killed anime as soon as they stopped showing it on Sundays, when PEOPLE ARE ACTUALLY AT HOME WATCHING TV.

View Postlinlindesu, on Jun 7 2009, 12:40 PM, said:

To be honest, the death of the american anime industry sort of brings me a bit of joy. I dislike the direction dubbing has been headed towards for the past five- seven years and I hope decreased sales will make them notice.

How was dubbing different today than it was 5-7 years ago?

View Postlinlindesu, on Jun 7 2009, 12:40 PM, said:

Luckily for me most DVDS have a Japanese w/ subtitles feature. I'm hoping the anime industry will become more direct by just licensing and subtitling anime titles. It would not only bring titles here faster so people with morals don't complain about their associates watching "illegal anime" , but would make the business far more profitable.

I certainly agree with just releasing subtitles. While I prefer dubs on more text-heavy shows, shows like Gurren Lagann were released correctly - they released the subtitles only at a cheaper price, and then later they went back and dubbed the show. I guess one of the problems though is that companies are always trying to cater to kids, and kids don't want to watch a show they have to read.

But then the question becomes: if distributors stop releasing anime for little kids, will those little kids be interested in anime when they become teens? Perhaps, but perhaps not?

This post has been edited by skyrune83: 07 June 2009 - 05:20 PM

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#49 User is offline   Lizza 

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Posted 07 June 2009 - 08:29 PM

I usually watch streams of fansubs but I also buy the DVDs as they're released for the majority of series I watch more than four or five episodes of. In the case of Hetalia, I've already bought the first two DVDs, and am waiting for the rest to be released, because as has been stated, it's pretty controversial and might not be licensed. And, as has also been stated, the webcomic's completely free either way. Soul Eater, I haven't bought yet, because it's been licensed and I'm waiting for the box set, but I will be buying it. But I'm not going to buy DVDs from series I haven't seen. Also, it takes WAY too long for dubs to come out after it's licensed- Soul Eater's licensing was announced around New Year's but it's not being released until "late 2009".

Basically, I'm impatient. I'm sure the same applies for most of the fandom.

#50 User is offline   skyrune83 

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Posted 08 June 2009 - 08:19 AM

View PostLizza, on Jun 7 2009, 09:29 PM, said:

Basically, I'm impatient. I'm sure the same applies for most of the fandom.

I'm always too busy to be impatient... T_T
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Posted 08 June 2009 - 07:51 PM

I'm probably opening myself up to flamebaiting, but I have to come down on the side of "downloading is wrong" crowd. I think that, by demanding their anime NOW NOW NOW WHY HASN'T THIS DOWNLOADED OMG IT'S TAKING A WHOLE 20 SECONDS, fandom (or otakudom, if you like) is cutting its own throat.

Anime exists to make money. Naruto succeeds because it makes oodles of cash for its creators, just as Evangelion makes oodles of cash for Gainax, Pokemon makes oodles of cash for its creators whose name I can't recall, and Rumiko Takahashi is the richest woman in Japan because her stuff makes money. Matt is right that a great deal of anime is crap. But it's also worth remembering that one otaku's crap is another otaku's Greatest Series Evar. I love Gunsmith Cats, but it's only three episodes long, so obviously fandom didn't think GSC was all that. Which is okay--I hate Naruto and never saw the appeal of Death Note, to name but two series.

Okay, maybe you're downloading anime fandubs because the series isn't over here yet (which makes me wonder how in hell you heard about it in the first place). Well and good. But if you're getting it for free, that means someone is getting screwed. Enough people get screwed, the industry collapses. That's Basic Capitalism 101. If no one's making money, then no one's really interested in busting their butt doing it. Be honest. Would you work for free? Not likely. I wouldn't. And personally, I think by downloading for free, you're basically telling the anime industry that they're not worth it. Screw the future--I WANT MY ANIME NOW. (Which goes a long way in explaining certain political viewpoints, but that's another flamariffic discussion.)

I use Kumby on occasion to watch for free, but those series are generally older series and I hope Kumby has permission to use them. I also have no problem with sites where you pay a small fee to watch it online--and I agree that more anime distributors need to adopt this. I personally dislike watching anime on my computer; it's more fun on my TV, but that's me.

What I see are a lot of people who want instant gratification for no price. Everything has a price. Someone else is paying it now, but eventually, it will be anime fandom in general who pays the price for impatience. Why not give an older series a shot instead of glomping the Next Big Thing, relax, and wait until it's out on DVD or for legal download?

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#52 User is offline   Lina 

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Posted 08 June 2009 - 07:55 PM

View Postsentinel28a, on Jun 8 2009, 08:51 PM, said:

Okay, maybe you're downloading anime fandubs because the series isn't over here yet (which makes me wonder how in hell you heard about it in the first place).

They might have heard about it because

1. They keep an eye out for new series by going to websites where they could find such information
2. They have friends in Japan (I have a friend who moved back to Japan and she keeps me updated on some stuff)
3. There could be other reasons.

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View PostFoolish Humon, on 13 June 2010 - 07:19 PM, said:

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#53 User is offline   FlyingElf 

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Posted 09 June 2009 - 02:20 AM

late to the game and I'm sure probably all my points have been made, but whatever.

What I do not understand immediately is why you would care about somebody downloading a fansub, but not watching a free stream of it online? Why can't someone post a link to Helatia on ACen's website? Because the industry hates fansubs. And fansubbers don't pay ACen's bills by buying tables in the dealer's room or supplying free DVDs to show in the video rooms.

Why anime distributors are going under is because they keep making the same mistakes over and over and over again. Look at some of the stuff that is liscensed. Hell lets take Moonlight Mile for example. This is a good show. It is also a very niche show. Someone who likes this kind of stuff will absolutely love it, but the vast majority of people will simply get bored by it. But its liscensed here...Somebody paid money to do that, have it voice acted and then distributed so that the few hardcore fans who are into it can buy a legal copy of it. I can almost guarantee they will not make money on this. I mean even if they got the show for cheap, I bet the cost to distro and dub it alone is going to kill them. This goes for other series like Pumpkin Scissors...When someone like me looks at a DVD on a shelf and goes huh? Its probably not a good thing. Which brings me to my next point...

Fansubbing is free advertisement and market research. When a series is fansubbed a smart distro company is going to check the numbers downloaded and find out whats popular and what people wanna see, and then try to get that series. Hell I could tell you that series like Naruto, Death Note and FMA were going to do well in America well before they were liscensed because of how popular they were in the fansubbing community. So I'm sorry I do not buy the statement of downloading something because its not over here is screwing somebody over. Trust me, if the Japanese companies pushed hard enough, they could shut down fansubbing. They don't because they know that people watching their show in America = merchandise sold and more money in their pockets.

Now onto the next problem...the popularity of anime in America has peaked imo...It is now on a downturn. Which means less people buying stuff. Also with the economy on a downturn as well stuff is not selling as well in general.

So how do we fix all this? I believe we go back to the old days where we only liscense a select few things we know will sell and well...thats all you get. I love seeing so much anime subbed, but its obviously not working. Companies keep going out of business and something has to change. Blaming fansubbers is simply scapegoating the problem. Its not solving anything. Anime would not have a magical revival and sell twice as much if fansubbing did not exist.

Fansubbing is not killing anime in America. Hell fansubbing helped it grow into what it is. Lets face it, without fansubbing I probably would have never bought an anime DVD. I'm not the kind of person to just go out and buy something because it looks pretty. You don't buy a DVD of a movie you haven't seen before, same goes with anime. Especially because anime is more expensive than a regular movie DVD. You buy it because you like it and you know you will watch it over and over again. And had fansubbing never been around to give it its initial boon half these companies wouldn't even exist and we never would have seen anime on places like adult swim and netflix.

Now with all that being said, are there still dishonorable people out there who fansub and download stuff that is liscensed and distributed in America, absolutely. Should they support the American market? Yes they should, but they are not killing the industry as you seem to want to have us believe.
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#54 User is offline   skyrune83 

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Posted 09 June 2009 - 07:42 AM

I know this is a bit off topic from my original focus, but one thing I should also mention is how DVDs are released.

I'm the kind of guy who, if I see a series I know I want to watch over and over, I will buy the DVDs. However, I, like many people, have limited shelf space. So I am not going to buy individual volumes.

This is why individual volumes suck:
1.) They cost too much
2.) They take up too much shelf space (yes, I know, "back in my day, we had TAPES, and we LIKED it!")
3.) I hate, let me repeat, HATE changing discs every 3 episodes, having to watch flying logos and dumb ads over and over!

So I always try to get the complete collections of shows. But even then, some collections are nearly as big as the size of the individual volumes anyway. So I found myself buying these "unofficial" DVD collections at neighborhood stores and on eBay - they were cheap, they were thin, and they had just a few discs with the whole series. JUST WHAT I WANTED. ... ... ... But I found out they were bootlegs. T_T And my bf told me bootlegs are WORSE than downloads because not only am I not supporting the anime, I am supporting some third-world country DVD-copying tycoon.

But my point is, if distributors could just release series just like the bootleggers did, I think DVD sales would be on the road to success. And that's why I give kudos to the few companies who in fact, do release thin packs (ADV, and Funimation, moreso these days). Because seriously, what would you rather have? 26 episodes in an affordable thin box with no extras, or 26 episodes in a ginormous expensive box with some dumb "collectors" toy and interviews with people you don't care about?
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Posted 09 June 2009 - 09:30 AM

View PostFlyingElf, on Jun 9 2009, 02:20 AM, said:

late to the game and I'm sure probably all my points have been made, but whatever.

What I do not understand immediately is why you would care about somebody downloading a fansub, but not watching a free stream of it online? Why can't someone post a link to Helatia on ACen's website? Because the industry hates fansubs. And fansubbers don't pay ACen's bills by buying tables in the dealer's room or supplying free DVDs to show in the video rooms.

Why anime distributors are going under is because they keep making the same mistakes over and over and over again. Look at some of the stuff that is liscensed. Hell lets take Moonlight Mile for example. This is a good show. It is also a very niche show. Someone who likes this kind of stuff will absolutely love it, but the vast majority of people will simply get bored by it. But its liscensed here...Somebody paid money to do that, have it voice acted and then distributed so that the few hardcore fans who are into it can buy a legal copy of it. I can almost guarantee they will not make money on this. I mean even if they got the show for cheap, I bet the cost to distro and dub it alone is going to kill them. This goes for other series like Pumpkin Scissors...When someone like me looks at a DVD on a shelf and goes huh? Its probably not a good thing. Which brings me to my next point...

Fansubbing is free advertisement and market research. When a series is fansubbed a smart distro company is going to check the numbers downloaded and find out whats popular and what people wanna see, and then try to get that series. Hell I could tell you that series like Naruto, Death Note and FMA were going to do well in America well before they were liscensed because of how popular they were in the fansubbing community. So I'm sorry I do not buy the statement of downloading something because its not over here is screwing somebody over. Trust me, if the Japanese companies pushed hard enough, they could shut down fansubbing. They don't because they know that people watching their show in America = merchandise sold and more money in their pockets.

Now onto the next problem...the popularity of anime in America has peaked imo...It is now on a downturn. Which means less people buying stuff. Also with the economy on a downturn as well stuff is not selling as well in general.

So how do we fix all this? I believe we go back to the old days where we only liscense a select few things we know will sell and well...thats all you get. I love seeing so much anime subbed, but its obviously not working. Companies keep going out of business and something has to change. Blaming fansubbers is simply scapegoating the problem. Its not solving anything. Anime would not have a magical revival and sell twice as much if fansubbing did not exist.

Fansubbing is not killing anime in America. Hell fansubbing helped it grow into what it is. Lets face it, without fansubbing I probably would have never bought an anime DVD. I'm not the kind of person to just go out and buy something because it looks pretty. You don't buy a DVD of a movie you haven't seen before, same goes with anime. Especially because anime is more expensive than a regular movie DVD. You buy it because you like it and you know you will watch it over and over again. And had fansubbing never been around to give it its initial boon half these companies wouldn't even exist and we never would have seen anime on places like adult swim and netflix.

Now with all that being said, are there still dishonorable people out there who fansub and download stuff that is liscensed and distributed in America, absolutely. Should they support the American market? Yes they should, but they are not killing the industry as you seem to want to have us believe.


I agree EVERYTHING here. He posted my thoughts haha.


But my main reason for posting is this.

By your first post, you seemed really disgusted at people who watch dl and watch fansubs. Is this like your first time hearing about this or something? (no offense when I say this but it's either that or as Matt, said, you riding on a high horse) This is a pretty debated topic already.

Among anime fans, this is like discussing religion or politics. (but since we are civilized, we don't flame each other) But everyone is either on one or the other.

Not trying to insult you, but this has been nipping on me to post this.
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#56 User is offline   Ohki 

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Posted 09 June 2009 - 10:00 AM

View Postskyrune83, on Jun 7 2009, 12:04 PM, said:

Sigh... well I didn't KNOW Hetalia was something bizarre that wouldn't be released later... -_-
Gimme a break here...


Uh...if you're going to make a topic like this and use something as an example, you should do a little research =/.

Though there is a possibility of it getting licensed now, since it's on Funimation's survey, but I still don't think it'll get licensed.

And the argument that we should just watch what's licensed doesn't really hold up IMO. Yes, there's a lot of stuff that is licensed out there, but how much of it is actually good? The anime that I deem to be the best I've ever seen isn't even available legally (anymore. It was a Geneon title that didn't get rescued. I own the DVDs and it makes me sad that it's next to impossible for anyone else to buy them). And a lot of garbage is licensed. The really good, unique titles don't sell and often don't get licensed. I'm not going to give up watching things like Nodame Cantabile because of this.

That said, I do agree that fans should be supporting the industry. Please don't get me wrong here; I'm not one of those people that believes anime should be free or anything like that. I have a ridiculously large DVD collection, actually. But there's no way I could possibly afford to buy all of the anime that I want to watch, even if all of it was licensed. Which is saying something, since almost all my spare money goes to anime in some way, shape, or form.

Also on topic of Hetalia, if anyone here ever complains about people reading the manga scanlated, I will hang my head in shame. Hetalia is a webcomic. The "scanlations" are just translated versions of something that was free in the first place. Feel no guilt, people. Not in the case of Hetalia manga.
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Posted 09 June 2009 - 10:07 AM

View PostLina, on Jun 6 2009, 09:22 PM, said:

That is pretty much exactly what I said, but like you said you were too lazy to read one page worth of replies. XDDD


lolol yeah. It was getting late for me that night and I already felt agitated by the first post. xD Scrolling only made my eyes feel tired and I started to forget what I was going to say.
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#58 User is offline   skyrune83 

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Posted 09 June 2009 - 10:11 AM

View PostOhki, on Jun 9 2009, 11:00 AM, said:

Uh...if you're going to make a topic like this and use something as an example, you should do a little research =/.

Sorry. I guess I figured forums are a method of research...

View PostOhki, on Jun 9 2009, 11:00 AM, said:

Also on topic of Hetalia, if anyone here ever complains about people reading the manga scanlated, I will hang my head in shame. Hetalia is a webcomic. The "scanlations" are just translated versions of something that was free in the first place. Feel no guilt, people. Not in the case of Hetalia manga.

The question is: Is the original webcomic, as Dane Cook would put it, "absolutely free"? Meaning, are there ads on the site that they wish for their fans to support? Because if the site it is posted on has ads, then there was an intent by the creators to make money. Like CrunchyRoll, they offer anime to its viewers for free, with the hopes that the fans will support the products in the ads. That's how CrunchyRoll is able to offer anime free.
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Posted 09 June 2009 - 10:39 AM

wow, my question completely skipped.

It would be nice to know the reasonings of making this thread...
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Posted 09 June 2009 - 10:42 AM

It's easy to find out about shows that aren't in America. Deviantart is a big way. People make fanart, people in or close to Japan or had their own means, and you say "Ooh what's that?" Sometime they even post journals telling you to check it out because it's worth it. I found Gurren Lagann that way. I found D.Gray Man when my friend cosplayed Rhode and I was left like "Whossat?" And she also got me into KHR. Hetalia came into my radar when Korea complained and it got all over anime news sites. One day I got bored and checked them out only to find out it was hilarious. With the internet it's almost impossible not to know what the next big thing will be.


How often do you actually click on these ad links? I have to say I'm being about as helpful reading scants as I would be going to the original website...where I can't even read it since I'm monolingual. I don't think the ad people care about me staring at their website and it's pretty pictures when I'm probably not even eligible to buy their product.

I also have to agree with Felf on something. "STOOOP" I go to Fry's and there's the longest aisle of anime. I'm not going to be able to buy all that! I get their stuff when it's on sale. I don't have thousands to throw at all your subs. No one does. Which is why only peoples favorites or the most popular get bought out. I loved Scrapped Princess but I don't know anyone else who does or anyone that wants to buy it. So it sits there on the shelf for ages with one or two fans getting it while Death Note gets eaten up. We don't need every single anime in the world on those shelves. I love dubs, I really do. If there was a cost effective way for them to do dubs, me to get and watch them, and everyone winds up happy I'd be for that. But there's none that I now. So I don't see all your dubs. I definitely don't buy them all. I see a lot of them only due to netflix but that is time consuming and I still miss a lot.

This post has been edited by Imaurel: 09 June 2009 - 10:45 AM

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