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Unethical Fandom?

#1 User is offline   skyrune83 

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Posted 05 June 2009 - 07:43 AM

Seems since I've been going to cons since last October, I've been hearing so much about Soul Eater and Hetalia. So much so that I figure "Hell, I guess I'm behind, and I should go buy the DVDs..."

OH BUT WAIT...
Funny thing that... the DVDs aren't even available yet.

OK, well, I overhear all this talk about online sites like crunchyroll.com. Let's go there...

NOPE. NOTHING THERE EITHER.
Which means people are fans of illegal shows. Wow... I am shocked that this many people are illegally downloading these shows - I can't tell you how many people I've met on this forum that list Hetalia as one of their favorite shows.

Shouldn't fans be SUPPORTING the thing they are a fan of? I know our pockets are lighter than ever, but I mean, come on, you guys can't even wait until these shows are put online legally?

I feel like I'm "missing out" on all the references to these shows at cons and on the forums - and my natural instinct is to go watch the show. But if we're fans of something illegal, do I really want to be a part of that fandom?

This post has been edited by skyrune83: 05 June 2009 - 07:45 AM

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#2 User is offline   DioxideIL 

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Posted 05 June 2009 - 08:00 AM

While it may not be the case for everyone, what's to say that some of them aren't going to buy it when it does release? What says they aren't just watching what they can for now until that point in time?
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Posted 05 June 2009 - 09:20 AM

View PostDioxideIL, on Jun 5 2009, 09:00 AM, said:

While it may not be the case for everyone, what's to say that some of them aren't going to buy it when it does release? What says they aren't just watching what they can for now until that point in time?

I find it hard to believe that the people will actually buy the things. That just the way humans work.
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Posted 05 June 2009 - 09:32 AM

I don't watch too much anime but I do read a lot of manga. I do read ahead online, but I also buy the series when they are brought to the US. The only problem is that I don't buy them as fast as if I hadn't already read it. I admit that there are a few series that I haven't bought. -_-;
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#5 User is offline   skyrune83 

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Posted 05 June 2009 - 09:33 AM

I'm not saying everyone should go buy every series, but are we so impatient that we can't even wait until series are put legally on FREE sites like Crunchyroll?
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Posted 05 June 2009 - 09:37 AM

Somebody's on a high horse. Guess what? Nobody is losing money, despite the fake numbers companies like to flaunt around.


Actually, the Wolverine leak was credited to the movie's success.... Think Naruto or Bleach would have been hits had they been brought here first? Fat chance, they were brought here because they were already a big hit!


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#7 User is offline   skyrune83 

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Posted 05 June 2009 - 09:49 AM

View PostMatt PNiewski, on Jun 5 2009, 10:37 AM, said:

Somebody's on a high horse. Guess what? Nobody is losing money, despite the fake numbers companies like to flaunt around.


Actually, the Wolverine leak was credited to the movie's success.... Think Naruto or Bleach would have been hits had they been brought here first? Fat chance, they were brought here because they were already a big hit!


It doesn't work they way you think it does.

Then why are anime distributors failing? And why can I not find decent anime on TV anymore?

This post has been edited by skyrune83: 05 June 2009 - 09:50 AM

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#8 User is offline   DaphHime 

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Posted 05 June 2009 - 10:21 AM

One correction on that. Hetalia was actually a Japanese web comic long before it was an anime. So it already had a pretty established fanbase. Plus the episodes for that anime are already only shown online as well. It was supposed to air on TV, but there was some huge controversy, so they can only air it online. I kind of doubt they're going to release it in English.

And I think Funimation has the English rights to Soul Eater. Last I looked anyway. They just haven't released it yet.

Still doesn't make fansubs anymore right or wrong, I'll admit. And I love that there are more sites like Crunchyroll that are airing anime straight from Japan as soon as it airs. What ticked me off was that some fans were STILL complaining about it. It's free, the episodes are new, the streams are a nice quality, and it's legit. WHAT MORE DO THEY WANT!? >_< The only thing I don't like about CR is that the stream lags horribly on my computer. That and the subs are pretty inaccurate in places.
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#9 User is offline   skyrune83 

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Posted 05 June 2009 - 01:22 PM

And I will miss Anime Insider - they had some good people over there:

http://www.toplessrobot.com/2009/03/anime_...2001_-_2009.php
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#10 User is offline   HaruHE 

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Posted 05 June 2009 - 02:24 PM

Unfortunately regardless of how people feel about this, things aren't going to change, CR isn't going anywhere, hell if you think about it....More sites will pop up in time LIKE CR, but things will carry on as they do, and companies will continue to produce more anime.
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#11 User is offline   Lina 

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Posted 05 June 2009 - 02:30 PM

I don't mind fansubs because it gives me a chance to watch it and if I like it, I will buy it when the DVDs are in America. Like with manga online, I read it and if I like it, I will go buy it. It helps me save money and not waste it on something I don't like.

Soul Eater should be coming out in English soon. I'm not sure who has the rights, but I know it will be here soon.

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View PostFoolish Humon, on 13 June 2010 - 07:19 PM, said:

Ladies ladies ladies, if you find a man whose only concern about a woman is her breast size, he just may be dumb enough to believe you if you say you have Ds when you have Bs. :thumbup:

#12 User is offline   Imaurel 

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Posted 05 June 2009 - 02:44 PM

I don't download, I stream xD; Same difference, though

Well if I really like the show/manga I'll buy it when it comes out
That's to say if Hetalia EVER comes out in America. It's an online show anyways.
Soul Eater I'll probably buy, I liked it a lot
But I barely buy anything to begin with. I netflix it, and then follow the same pattern as I do with streaming.



Anime is hardly a money making business, and has never been. It's always survived as best it can.
But, come to think of it, everyone is failing right now. Could that have something to do with a world-wide recession, especially in Japan?
I can't see much reason that I, or anyone else, should spend my money on DVD's...when I just don't have money. Not to say I don't buy anime-related items that I feel I get more use out of in this online world. We have countless figures, posters, throws, and other such items in my house. I can say we, much like most otaku including streamers, have spent more then our fair share on anime things. I hardly feel I'm to blame for their losses <<;
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#13 User is offline   skyrune83 

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Posted 05 June 2009 - 03:03 PM

Well, I certainly see the points made here: it sounds like Soul Eater *should* be coming out soon, and Hetalia just sounds like a really bizarre case of "anime reincarnation."

But, I guess my point could best be described in the following challenge:
I am interested in viewing Hetalia. With that said,
provide me with a means of watching Hetalia that will NOT be deleted by an ACen moderator.

It can not be done. So how can I participate in a Hetalia discussion if I am not allowed to watch Hetalia?

This post has been edited by skyrune83: 05 June 2009 - 03:04 PM

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#14 User is offline   Lina 

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Posted 05 June 2009 - 03:06 PM

You are allowed to watch Hetalia. Who says you can't?

I'm not sure if I'm allowed to say this website, so I can PM it to you.

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View PostFoolish Humon, on 13 June 2010 - 07:19 PM, said:

Ladies ladies ladies, if you find a man whose only concern about a woman is her breast size, he just may be dumb enough to believe you if you say you have Ds when you have Bs. :thumbup:

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Posted 05 June 2009 - 03:13 PM

View PostHaruHE, on Jun 5 2009, 08:24 PM, said:

Unfortunately regardless of how people feel about this, things aren't going to change, CR isn't going anywhere, hell if you think about it....More sites will pop up in time LIKE CR, but things will carry on as they do, and companies will continue to produce more anime.


Actually, CR no longer has illegal fansubs. They went legit a long time ago.
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#16 User is offline   skyrune83 

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Posted 05 June 2009 - 03:14 PM

View PostLina, on Jun 5 2009, 04:06 PM, said:

You are allowed to watch Hetalia. Who says you can't?

I'm not sure if I'm allowed to say this website, so I can PM it to you.

Well, I know I can go watch it any time I want at "various websites", but I'm thinking of this is terms of how an organization like ACen would ideally prefer its fans to view the shows. If a member of the ACen staff can tell me how to view Hetalia legally, then I would go watch it ASAP.

From what I can see, I have to be a "bad guy" and do something "illegal" to be a part of the Hetalia fandom.

This post has been edited by skyrune83: 05 June 2009 - 03:16 PM

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#17 User is offline   Lina 

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Posted 05 June 2009 - 03:21 PM

View Postskyrune83, on Jun 5 2009, 04:14 PM, said:

Well, I know I can go watch it any time I want at "various websites", but I'm thinking of this is terms of how an organization like ACen would ideally prefer its fans to view the shows. If a member of the ACen staff can tell me how to view Hetalia legally, then I would go watch it ASAP.

From what I can see, I have to be a "bad guy" and do something "illegal" to be a part of the Hetalia fandom.

This website is like Hulu. So you don't have to illegally download anything.
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View PostFoolish Humon, on 13 June 2010 - 07:19 PM, said:

Ladies ladies ladies, if you find a man whose only concern about a woman is her breast size, he just may be dumb enough to believe you if you say you have Ds when you have Bs. :thumbup:

#18 User is offline   Imaurel 

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Posted 05 June 2009 - 03:21 PM

Considering you can't even buy Hetalia there is absolutely no way
They are five minute episodes put up on various websites and probably not going to go any further than they have already because some other country complained.
This really is an illegal or don't show. But it's case is rather unique. How many other shows do you have little to no choice but to watch illegally? Soul Eater with some effort could be found the right way. And in some time will actually be found in America. Most shows you know you have a hope of being able to find/buy. NOT Hetalia.
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#19 User is offline   skyrune83 

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Posted 05 June 2009 - 03:33 PM

View PostImaurel, on Jun 5 2009, 04:21 PM, said:

Most shows you know you have a hope of being able to find/buy. NOT Hetalia.

LOL, Hetalia sounds like some kind of illegal drug or something. :P

But yeah, I get your point - it looks like an oddball that won't be released.

And I would watch it, but take a look at this other forum page:
http://www.acen.org/forums/index.php?showt...30&start=30

One user, wmcnair370, tried to discuss Queen Milennia, a show that "has never been licensed, sold or distributed outside of Japan, and most of all it has never even been translated into English by any company on the face of this planet! If you do a google search it is only available on a Japanese only DVD and only with Japanese subtitles". So it sounds similar to the situation Hetalia is in, right?

wmcnair got a slap on the wrist from the ACen moderators for mentioning a place to view QM.

(*Please note, I am not attacking the ACen moderators, but I am trying to make a point regarding incontinuity)

This post has been edited by skyrune83: 05 June 2009 - 03:36 PM

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#20 User is offline   Lina 

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Posted 05 June 2009 - 03:37 PM

View Postskyrune83, on Jun 5 2009, 04:33 PM, said:

LOL, Hetalia sounds like some kind of illegal drug or something. :P

But yeah, I get your point - it looks like an oddball that won't be released.

And I would watch it, but take a look at this other forum page:
http://www.acen.org/forums/index.php?showt...30&start=30

One user, wmcnair370, tried to discuss Queen Milennia, a show that "has never been licensed, sold or distributed outside of Japan, and most of all it has never even been translated into English by any company on the face of this planet! If you do a google search it is only available on a Japanese only DVD and only with Japanese subtitles". So it sounds similar to the situation Hetalia is in, right?

wmcnair got a slap on the wrist from the ACen moderators for mentioning a place to view QM.

That's because the website he mentioned was a torrent website.

But I can still give you that website that's like Hulu where you can watch it. No downloading involved.

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View PostFoolish Humon, on 13 June 2010 - 07:19 PM, said:

Ladies ladies ladies, if you find a man whose only concern about a woman is her breast size, he just may be dumb enough to believe you if you say you have Ds when you have Bs. :thumbup:

#21 User is offline   skyrune83 

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Posted 05 June 2009 - 03:41 PM

View PostLina, on Jun 5 2009, 04:37 PM, said:

That's because the website he mentioned was a torrent website.

But I can still give you that website that's like Hulu where you can watch it. No downloading involved.

If you are sure ACen moderators will be okay with it, then okay.
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#22 User is offline   Lina 

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Posted 05 June 2009 - 03:43 PM

View Postskyrune83, on Jun 5 2009, 04:41 PM, said:

If you are sure ACen moderators will be okay with it, then okay.

If you looked in that thread you linked, Akai said to PM people websites instead of posting them on the public forums.

I shall PM you the website now. :3

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View PostFoolish Humon, on 13 June 2010 - 07:19 PM, said:

Ladies ladies ladies, if you find a man whose only concern about a woman is her breast size, he just may be dumb enough to believe you if you say you have Ds when you have Bs. :thumbup:

#23 User is offline   Imaurel 

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Posted 05 June 2009 - 03:43 PM

If the show isn't licensed then it's not illegal *confused*
Oh well, their problem, I don't need to get involved xD;
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#24 User is offline   skyrune83 

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Posted 05 June 2009 - 03:50 PM

View PostImaurel, on Jun 5 2009, 04:43 PM, said:

If the show isn't licensed then it's not illegal *confused*
Oh well, their problem, I don't need to get involved xD;

I guess the issue is while Hetalia would not be a problem, people would be tempted to use that same means to access other shows which might be licensed. And I would assume that is why there is the security. Does this sound about right?
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Posted 05 June 2009 - 03:52 PM

View Postskyrune83, on Jun 5 2009, 04:50 PM, said:

I guess the issue is while Hetalia would not be a problem, people would be tempted to use that same means to access other shows which might be licensed. And I would assume that is why there is the security. Does this sound about right?

Pretty much.
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View PostFoolish Humon, on 13 June 2010 - 07:19 PM, said:

Ladies ladies ladies, if you find a man whose only concern about a woman is her breast size, he just may be dumb enough to believe you if you say you have Ds when you have Bs. :thumbup:

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Posted 05 June 2009 - 04:50 PM

View Postskyrune83, on Jun 5 2009, 04:50 PM, said:

I guess the issue is while Hetalia would not be a problem, people would be tempted to use that same means to access other shows which might be licensed. And I would assume that is why there is the security. Does this sound about right?

That sounds about right; after all, licensed shows generally either have or will have a way to view them legally, and supporting the industry by using these legal channels is a good thing to do. If they're making it available like that, then what better way to support the series?

As far as Hetalia goes, most of the Hetalia fandom (and by that I mean the vast majority of it) centres around the web manga, which is completely legal to view for free (it's posted on a Geocities site and on his blog, both of which are freely accessible worldwide), and the author even gave permission to the fans to re-post it and make derivative works, as long as they're free to view. Even if you've never seen an episode of the anime, you can still be just as much into the fandom because the legally viewable web manga with legal translations is ultimately what built the fanbase. Its popularity took off before a single episode of the anime even aired, and even then, the series is highly unlikely to ever be licensed, but if, by some fluke of nature, it is, there will probably be lots and lots of people ready to buy the DVDs. (My guess is that it won't be super expensive, either, given that the episodes are short, so that means that chances are even more people would buy the DVDs.)

Of course, one thing that I really have a problem with is when a show is going to be released for free anyway pretty close to the airing in Japan, and people STILL can't wait the couple of days until the show is supposed to stream and instead upload the official subs to their favourite download sites ahead of the intended airdate. (Yes, I am referring to the incidents with One Piece and Phantom.) That's seriously biting the hand that feeds you, as they are giving fans the opportunity to watch for free very close to the airdate, and there are people who still say that it isn't good enough. In fact, if it's viewable worldwide for free in a legal setting (e.g. the official sites and anywhere else the company chooses to post their series), why post it illegally when you can merely link to where viewers can watch it in a legal manner that still costs them absolutely nothing?

I also don't care for the people who speak out against buying DVDs, stating that supporting the "evil R1 industry" is a waste of money, saying that people should just download fansubs or DVD rips of licensed shows instead, often citing 4Kids as the reason why (their assumption being that all companies act just like 4Kids), despite the fact that DVDs these days almost always have the option to watch in Japanese. Their argument makes no sense, anyway, because the R1 industry that they vilify is possibly one of the largest sources of income the anime creators have, and without the royalties from licenses, the best case scenario would be a sharp decline in the amount of anime produced, and the worst case would be that there would be no more anime produced.

This post has been edited by Shintarou Inuzuka: 05 June 2009 - 05:38 PM

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#27 User is offline   jsieczkar 

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Posted 05 June 2009 - 05:17 PM

View PostDaphHime, on Jun 5 2009, 05:13 PM, said:

Actually, CR no longer has illegal fansubs. They went legit a long time ago.

It is a pretty good service, the summer season in general looks kinda crappy so I'm not holding out much hope for what they will have.

As for Fansubs, I'll avoid any ethics questions but will say they are illegal in all forms. Via the Berne Convention for the Protection of Literary and Artistic Works the United States Recognizes all Japanese copyrights in the US. Any works distributed with out the permission of the copyright holder is copyright infringement. In legal terms there is no Grey area.

That being said there are various levels of ethics that fansubers have. Me I will only work I titles that have slim to no chance of being brought in the US aka older titles and works by studios such as 4C. Others will only work on a title till it is picked up, some till the DVD goes on sale. Others don't care and will do the series till they get a C&D notice. The last group are not fansubers and are disliked by fansubers: rippers. These groups now include people who are ripping FUNimation and CR steams and then putting them up for download. This is pure piracy and is out right taking money from the license holder.
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#28 User is offline   DaphHime 

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Posted 05 June 2009 - 05:38 PM

View Postjsieczkar, on Jun 5 2009, 11:17 PM, said:

These groups now include people who are ripping FUNimation and CR steams and then putting them up for download. This is pure piracy and is out right taking money from the license holder.


For the life of me I'll never understand why people do this. The series is RIGHT THERE on the website. If your not a member it's not going to kill you to wait a week. So what if there are adds. They last like what, 10-20 seconds? It's like watching actual TV. I'll never get the whole "sticking it to the man", "licensing companies are evil!" and "I wanna watch it NOW!!" attitudes.

I see this all the time now that Gintama is being legally streamed on CR. This from a fandom that had to wait almost 6 months for a new fansub of the series to come out. <_<
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#29 User is offline   Imaurel 

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Posted 05 June 2009 - 08:51 PM

I've got nothing to stick to anyone xD; I only watch what is not readily or seems to not be any time soon ready for me. This goes for more than anime. But you'll never find a burned CD or DVD and you'll never find me selling those nonexistent items...or buying. I refuse to download anything anyways. Not because I see difference between that and streaming because I kinda don't but there's no way I'm willing to open up my computer to people I don't trust.
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#30 User is offline   Kankokujin 

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Posted 05 June 2009 - 11:39 PM

View Postskyrune83, on Jun 5 2009, 10:33 AM, said:

I'm not saying everyone should go buy every series, but are we so impatient that we can't even wait until series are put legally on FREE sites like Crunchyroll?

Hey. I'm all for supporting for legal consumption of anime as you but the fact of the matter is, there's still a lot anime that don't make it here and many most likely never will. You can't say we should miss out just because it's not available for DVD.
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